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20190124_190008
Elk Cow 2019

Description: Sorry for the ugly picture, but I wanted to show you guys this big elk cow I helped cull on a buddy's ranch. I was using the DB (.458 SOCOM specialty pistol). After my experience with the 300gr ballistic tips, I decided to switch to some 300gr hollow points I have. She gave absolutely no indication of being hit, even with blood flowing out her side. I shot her a little too far back at 75yds, and she had to be finished off with the ranch manager's rifle. Now, because it was dark, and we didn't have a great position to gut her, I didn't get a chance to see if her lungs were hit. I don't think so based on the shot placement. The bullet did not exit. If I continue to use this caliber, I am definitely switching to soft points or hard-cast bullets. Even though my freezer will soon be full, I feel I have many more lessons to learn from this experience.
Poster: RH Custom Guns
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Author
Thread  
Franchise
Distinguished Expert

Registered: December 2008
Location: Castalia, NC
Posts: 4,655
Tue January 29, 2019 11:26 Rating: 10.00 

Why not switch to 400 gr Bullets? Big gun, light for caliber (.458) bullets.....not always a great idea

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The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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jamesfromjersey
Shootist

Registered: January 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,543
Tue January 29, 2019 12:23 Rating: 10.00 

Those elk can take a beating... Shot one broadside at measured 90yds with Winchester 454 ammo and 260gr partition. He gave no indication of a hit. Fired another round and again no indication. He took a step and I saw a slight stumble and guide said they both went through the lungs a couple inches apart...The elk went down but I felt a heavier bullet was in order for my handgun and that size animal....

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Life member-NRA-SCI
Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067
Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s
"I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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tradmark
Shooting Expert

Registered: June 2010
Posts: 3,020
Tue January 29, 2019 19:22 Rating: 10.00 

Hit one in the shoulder with, over the years, everything from a 357 to a 500 smith and a variety of 45/70?s and 375 hh. Any of the above will show no sign of being hit other than perhaps a little jump unless you hit bone structure, heavy bone structure. Bullet weight never played into it. Saw one hit head on in the chest with a 375 hh and it just turned and ran 80 yards and lay down. The internal damage had to be seen to be believed. But showed no external sign. Ive also seen them drop in their tracks from 250gr barnes xbp in the meat of the shoulder. Hit em
In the guts with anything and they just run and run and run and run. Bullet weight doesnt really matter. Placement and bullet integrity followed by power do matter.
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Franchise
Distinguished Expert

Registered: December 2008
Location: Castalia, NC
Posts: 4,655
Wed January 30, 2019 01:45

The integrity of the choice of 300 gr .458 bullets is lacking..remember one was recovered from a Axis doe..not a great sign when shooting a Socom

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The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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45MAN
Pooh-Bah

Registered: August 2017
Location: brownsville, texas
Posts: 1,692
Wed January 30, 2019 02:54 Rating: 10.00 

RH: FORGET THE "HARD CAST" BULLETS, UNLESS YOU WILL STAY @ OR BELOW 1,300fps. TRY THE SWIFT A-FRAME 350gr 45-70 BULLET IF YOU WANT FASTER, AND SOME 400gr BULLETS IF YOU DO NOT MIND SLOWER. BTW, THAT IS THE UGLIEST ELK I HAVE EVER SEEN, THOUGHT IT WAS A CHUPACABRA OR SOMETHING.

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"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
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Whitworth
Shootist

Registered: January 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 9,836
Wed January 30, 2019 07:50

You're getting too much velocity for hardcast bullets. I too would suggest the A-frame. That said, I don't think weight is the issue either. If 300 grains is a good weight for a .454, how is it too light for a .458? The conversation above about bullet integrity is correct. Any 300 grain bullet that doesn't exit an axis doe is a bad bullet with horrible construction and not a function of weight.

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Max Prasac

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RH Custom Guns
journeyman

Registered: October 2018
Location: Fredericksburg, TX
Posts: 84
Wed January 30, 2019 07:50

Thanks for the input, gang! I am definitely switching to different bullets if I go after anything bigger than a whitetail again. I may also switch barrels and caliber - I have several take-off Rem 700 BBLs laying around.


45MAN - Yeah, she's not the prettiest. You have to remember that I'm in Texas, where elk are still exotics and, until recently, have been quarantined to whatever private land they were on because of the CWD scare. Consequently, my friends ranch has way too many rangy looking elk. Not so great for the elk, but good for me to get meat - it always tastes great!
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Franchise
Distinguished Expert

Registered: December 2008
Location: Castalia, NC
Posts: 4,655
Wed January 30, 2019 11:26

RH Custom Guns, I honestly hope that you know that everyone is just trying to help. First, bullet weight always plays a role in how every cartridge performs on a game animal (regardless of type of animal) Absolutely does, that's why very, very few people would recommend going after an elk with a 200 gr bullet in the 454 or 460. If y'all disagree, why do you fill your personal bragging boards with game taken with heavier bullets in .452? I'm talking from deer on up....I know why... They work & confidence. To compare a 300 gr 452 and a 300 gr 458, just shows a lack of real life knowledge with at least the 300 gr .458 bullets (most leave a lot to be desired)...in the a .458, a 300 gr bullet is light, a 400 gr is standard, and a 500 gr is heavy (45/70, 450 Marlin, 450 Alaskan)...in the .452 rounds, 300 gr is far from light, maybe a 200 gr is more like it...plus, the differences with how the different bullets handle and react to velocity is sizable. RH Custom Guns just shoot a game animal with a 400 gr bullet in the Socom and you'll be a believer too...you'll get penetration, blood trails, and your bullet won't explode like a grenade. I'm seriously laughing that bullet weight doesn't matter 😂 when choosing what bullet to use on game animals 🤣😆😁😜

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The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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RH Custom Guns
journeyman

Registered: October 2018
Location: Fredericksburg, TX
Posts: 84
Wed January 30, 2019 12:02

Franchise, I absolutely know that you guys are trying to help, and I love it!
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tradmark
Shooting Expert

Registered: June 2010
Posts: 3,020
Wed January 30, 2019 14:10

Bullet weight doesnt matter within the given range i gave. How the animal reacted wasnt due to bullet weight but bullet quality. Thats the point. I guess the point im making is that theres nothing that makes a 300 gr bullet not pass thru a cow elk or an axis doe because ita a 458 vs a 452. I 300 gr barnes out of a socom will destroy and of the above. And wave at ya passing thru the offside. This isnt really supposed to be a debate per se but a good conversation and just dont feel hungup on bullet weight. Quality of bullet is much more important is my whole point.
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jamesfromjersey
Shootist

Registered: January 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,543
Wed January 30, 2019 16:12

I shot a large boar in Tennessee using a 41 ca. 210gr Swift A-Frame that was running close to 1675fps.. The A-Frame is one of the best quality JHP bullets on the market and hit that boar right in the sweet spot (previous photos) but he did not miss a step. I thought the 41 A-frame would be enough for a large boar with good placement but later found the recovered bullet was in rough shape losing 85.0grs while a second Swift A-Frame to the other side lost 41.6grs and neither did the job cleanly. This is an example of where more bullet weight was needed to give it momentum to pass through that heavy body and get the job done. I finally finished the hunt with a 325ge XTP from a 475... Does this mean the A-Frame is a bad bullet?? No... What I`am saying is to match the bullet and weight to the animal your hunting and place it in the right spot.... Good hunting
PS- This is what happened on a previous hunt and may not be what other people have experienced. No hunt is the same.

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Life member-NRA-SCI
Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067
Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s
"I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Randy M
veteran

Registered: July 2011
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Posts: 1,297
Thu January 31, 2019 01:21 Rating: 10.00 



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The meat won't fry if the lead don't fly.
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45MAN
Pooh-Bah

Registered: August 2017
Location: brownsville, texas
Posts: 1,692
Thu January 31, 2019 02:35

JAMES: U GOT PICTURES OF THOSE 2 41 MAG A-FRAME BULLETS? WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT A FAILED A-FRAME REVOLVER BULLET LOOKS LIKE/WHERE IT FAILED.

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"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
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Kinger
newbie

Registered: October 2016
Posts: 42
Thu January 31, 2019 06:06 Rating: 10.00 

So, a .475 running a 400gr xtp cant make it through a sika or reasonably harvest a black buck but bullet weight weight means . . . .
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jamesfromjersey
Shootist

Registered: January 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,543
Thu January 31, 2019 09:19

Rey, Go to my photo albums and hit Reeder HHC #2 and should be top left photo... I did not say it failed... You did... I said it did not give complete penetration on such a tough animal cause it lacked weight to give it the momentum to give complete penetration. Otherwise the bullet worked as advertised..... I never had a A-Frame lose as much weight as the two I recovered from that boar.... If I had known before hand that I`ed be going after a boar as big as that one I would have used a high speed 300gr 44 or 45 caliber bullet... That was the second time I had a 41 A-Frame not get complete penetration on a large boar with a broadside lung shot, however, they are the best JHP hunting handgun bullet on the market today...

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Life member-NRA-SCI
Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067
Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s
"I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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