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#65805 - 03/05/10 07:32 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: sscoyote]
sscoyote
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Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 528
Loc: Colorado

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Good comments guys.
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#65806 - 03/05/10 07:39 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: sscoyote]
Tigger
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 4704
Loc: Western New York

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Steve and I have discussed the reticle range finding in person before and he is the one that tought me to use it. I have applied it to my Clearidge XP scope on the 243 Striker. It has a subtension of 2.48" at 100 yards on 20X. I usually use the head of the charlie as a target and they are about 4", the size of a softball. So if we use the formula with the head of the woodchuck taking up 2 subtension (distance between the dots) it works out like this;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / 2 = 80 yards away

If the charlies head takes up 1 mil it comes out that he is;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / 1 = 161 yards away

If the charlies head takes up half a mil it comes out that he is;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / .5 = 322 yards away

Sounds complicated but it's not. If you always use the same power and the quarry is constant, like hunting charlies all summer you can have the first part of the equation done and stored in your head or on a piece of paper and all that's left to do is divide the mils into it. For example I will find a charlie on a lower power and then dial the scope up to 20X, so I know that my 4" charlie head is going to be multiplied by 100 which is 400, then divide by 2.48 which is 161 and constant at 20X. Now just divide 161 by the mils his head takes up; example 1/3 or .33 mils is 488 yards. I find if you can break down a mil in 10th it mkaes the math easier. Don't forget your cell phone in your pocket has a calculator in it.

I have taken my range finder along before and checked this and I'm usually with in 20 yards of the reticle. Now a target that's 4" is tougher to determine the mils at longer ranges and a 15" deer, it will make it easier and a little more percise.

Steve if I made it sound to hard tell me.
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#65807 - 03/05/10 07:49 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: Tigger]
TCTex.
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 5924
Loc: Texas!!!

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Thanks for the Pm's Steve!!!
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote

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#65808 - 03/05/10 07:50 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: sscoyote]
sscoyote
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Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 528
Loc: Colorado

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Have a buddy of mine that's killing coyotes waayy out there with an AR-10 243 this year. 1 of the best LR shooters i know (uses all the gizmos). The problem msot guys encounter is that when they use a ballistic-style reticle, if it doesn't add up to even hundred yd. intervals they don't bother to calculate with the in-between ranges. But that's IMPORTANT info to know. He's using a varmint hunters reticle in his Leupold scope, and has killed 4 of his LR shots using it, cause the coyotes all landed very close to his stadia points. A week agoi or so he had an opportunity at a 500-something that was in between the stadia points. His zeros were something like 470 and 535, and he couldn't figure out where 500 was or something like that. If the reticle doesn't profile out to even hundred yd. intervals, u still have to calculate those reference points. Suppose the 470 was 5 MOA, and the the 535 was 9 MOA. Now suppose the ballistics program called for 6.5 MOA. Now u have to start using the math. There are 4 MOA between the stadia, and 6.5 MOA is 1.5 more than the 5 MOA. Now if u divide 1.5 by 4 u get .4. That means if the 5 MOA mark is say the 3rd stadia the doep for 500 would be 3.4. See how that works? Do the same for windage and u've now created a sort of grid zeroing system for the reticle all in tenths (just like interpolating the mil-dot reticle), both vertically and horizontally. Here's a pic of 1 of my systems, ydg., then vertical, then windage, always in that order, no headers needed. It's not enuf to know where the stadia points hit u have to develop a system that's fine-tuned...unless they all fall on even hundred-yd. intervals. But u still should calc. windage, IMO.--



Here's rangefinding using the 1.8 IPHY (0.5 mil) for a coyote b-b (11") as my unit of subtension (100/1.8) for this reticle--


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#65810 - 03/05/10 07:53 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: Tigger]
sscoyote
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Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 528
Loc: Colorado

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 Originally Posted By: Tigger
Steve and I have discussed the reticle range finding in person before and he is the one that tought me to use it. I have applied it to my Clearidge XP scope on the 243 Striker. It has a subtension of 2.48" at 100 yards on 20X. I usually use the head of the charlie as a target and they are about 4", the size of a softball. So if we use the formula with the head of the woodchuck taking up 2 subtension (distance between the dots) it works out like this;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / 2 = 80 yards away

If the charlies head takes up 1 mil it comes out that he is;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / 1 = 161 yards away

If the charlies head takes up half a mil it comes out that he is;

4 X 100 / 2.48 / .5 = 322 yards away

Sounds complicated but it's not. If you always use the same power and the quarry is constant, like hunting charlies all summer you can have the first part of the equation done and stored in your head or on a piece of paper and all that's left to do is divide the mils into it. For example I will find a charlie on a lower power and then dial the scope up to 20X, so I know that my 4" charlie head is going to be multiplied by 100 which is 400, then divide by 2.48 which is 161 and constant at 20X. Now just divide 161 by the mils his head takes up; example 1/3 or .33 mils is 488 yards. I find if you can break down a mil in 10th it mkaes the math easier. Don't forget your cell phone in your pocket has a calculator in it.

I have taken my range finder along before and checked this and I'm usually with in 20 yards of the reticle. Now a target that's 4" is tougher to determine the mils at longer ranges and a 15" deer, it will make it easier and a little more percise.

Steve if I made it sound to hard tell me.






Oh my God--perfection absolute!!

Some guys can figure this stuff out in their head. It takes just the right sort. Tigger's one of them i guess...I'm envious!
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Steve

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#65813 - 03/05/10 08:21 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: sscoyote]
Tigger
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 4704
Loc: Western New York

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Thatnks Steve... but I'm just an old country bumpkin...LOL Hey, remeber it was just 3 years ago this spring I came out and we each got a coyote?! Good Times!!

To add to the reticle ranging it's nice to be able to do this at different powers also. As you cange the power the mil subtension will change with 2nd focal plane scopes. The Clearidge scope I have is a second focal plane as most scope on the market are. If the company has a chart for thier scope mil values it's usually set for one power and not always you top power setting. Companies will highlight the power they give values for with the number on the power ring denoted by a different color or a circle around it. The Clearidge gives the values for three powers in thier specification chart. 6X, 14X and 20X, that makes it easier to calculate on different known setting in the power range. Here is a link to the specs page. Check it out.

6-20X Clearidge specs page
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#65817 - 03/05/10 08:36 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: Tigger]
sscoyote
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Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 528
Loc: Colorado

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That's a good spec. pg. Dale. That's the reason i bought my 6-18x Nikon Buckmasters mil-dot, 'cause the reticle subtension is cald. for 12x and at 18 it's 66% smaller (i was actually concerned mostly with the dot as it's a prairie dog shooter and i wanted a dot that was smaller than the ~.75" dot std. for most mil-dots). I dial elevation with this rig and use the reticle for windage calcs. at 2.4 IPHY between dots. It's great system, IMO. Budy Mitch has made some 1st shot connections with the rig at close to 500 yds. in some wind--17 Fireball XP. 25 Horn HP @ 3400 mv.

IMO, once a shooter completely understands the ~inversely proportional nature of 2nd FP variable powered optics (subtension vs. magnification) and the "modified" mil-ranging formula, he's got a lot more going for him than most do.
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Steve

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#65821 - 03/05/10 09:22 PM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: sscoyote]
TCTex.
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 5924
Loc: Texas!!!

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You have me drooling...
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote

Benjamin Franklin

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#65830 - 03/06/10 12:36 AM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: TCTex.]
Ernie
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 3266
Loc: Gillette, Wyoming

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Don't you guys know that if you talk/post to Steve in this way and encourage him to post this much about reticles, reticle rangefinding, etc... that he will not be able to sleep for a day or two and the convenience store clerks (or anyone who may mention numbers in his presence) won't know what to think when he begins to explain to the benefits of the inverse proportional nature of SFP's.
\:D
\:o
\:D

He may need to be hospitalized for reticle recovery therapy.
Is that a 12 Step Program?

Yes, and each Step subtends 1.047in @ 100 yards or .29089 Mil Radians...RIGHT?
_________________________
Ernie (xphunter)
Live such a life that when you awake, Satan shudders & says, Oh no, they're awake!


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#65840 - 03/06/10 11:03 AM Re: Drop compensation?? [Re: Ernie]
Tigger
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 4704
Loc: Western New York

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You are right Ernie, I can see it now..........

Steve sitting in a folding chair in a circle of people in a half lit room, he starts by saying....

"Hello, my name is Steve and I suffer from constant reticle rangefinding and subtension proportions. I just CAN"T stop the math in my head.... did you know I can determin the size of you eyes from here with my modified pen and a slide rule??" LOL Just kidding Steve.

Steve I have the Nikon 6-18 also, great info on the 66% smaller at 18X. I think it will go on the 260 when I get it up and running. Have you done much with the Nikon yet?
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