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#198705 - 04/08/19 09:10 PM 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag?
Vance in AK.
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Ok, not rehashing the merits of cast & jacketed!
I want to experiment & will probably try some Aframes.
With that in mind & considering I will be limited by the velocity I can acheive in my 7.5" 44 mag Super Blackhawk Hunter, and considering the game will be (Possibly) black bear, moose, & brown bear, would you go with 280s or 300s? Would the added speed of the 280 trump the added weight of the 300?

Anyone have real world velocities out of a 7.5" revolver? My chronograph died an ugly death a few years ago when a gas check from my 14" encore in 450 Marlin achieved full penetration of it's face. Double the opportunities for fun with cast!!!!

Still looking for anyone that has experience with Speer Deep Curl 270s on Moose size critters or brown bear.
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
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#198708 - 04/08/19 09:29 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
BBwheelgunner
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.


My chronograph died an ugly death a few years ago when a gas check from my 14" encore in 450 Marlin achieved full penetration of it's face.


HAHAHAHA!

man, with the crazy velocity spreads I was getting with mine, I wish a gas check would have penetrated it!

I have not killed a moose or Brown bear so take it for what it's worth, but If I were you, I would be loading the 300s


Edited by BBwheelgunner (04/08/19 09:30 PM)
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#198711 - 04/08/19 09:44 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
Franchise
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This may or may not help, but I still have the Shooting Times Feb 1999 article from years ago when Speer developed the 270 gr FP in the 44 Mag. They tested them out on big Nilgai Bulls in Texas. A big bull is over 600 pounds and tough as hell. Factory loads only and they performed flawlessly.
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#198715 - 04/08/19 10:14 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Franchise]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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Only went to Alaska three times and used the following handgun
bullets: black bear- 300gr Partition from 454
moose- 300gr Punch from 44
brown bear- 360gr Corbon Penetrator from 454
The black dropped dead at the shot... the moose took the Punch through the lungs plus one from 375 H&H up the rear as he ran away that failed (bent) . The brown was not to big and took one through the lungs at 50... Any one the the animals you list can take a beating and a big Alaskan moose, black or brown bear would call for the 300 or 325 Swift from your 454....
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#198722 - 04/09/19 01:17 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Vance in AK.
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Thanks for the info franchise..

So james im shooting 44mag not 454. Would you still recomend the 300s? Looks like low 1200fps range at the muzzle.
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#198723 - 04/09/19 02:04 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sixshot
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Can't help you with the A Frames but I have taken one large cow elk at about 60 yds with a 270 gr Speer Gold Dot, now called Deep Curl. The shot was broadside & a complete pass through. As far as I know that bullet is still going towards Wyoming. Gun was my 44 SRH.

Dick

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#198724 - 04/09/19 02:15 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sw282
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Haven't killed any big critters with my 629 Magnum Hunter. l

did manage to ''kill'' Matthew's swinger with a 270gr Speer tho.

l put a couple 300gr Sierra SPs this past Sat in a Ram swinger..

lt survived quite well. l think l would have to go with Franchise

and take the Speer 270 FP... 270s hit HARD out of my 44Mag and

REALLY hard from my S&W 460PC @ 260gr

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#198725 - 04/09/19 02:37 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sw282]
sw282
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l am beginning to think 270gr may be the ''0ptimum'' weight in 44MAG.

l cast and shoot 250, 270, and 300gr boolits in 44. 90% are 250gr KTs

0ver the past year or so l began casting/shooting a SAECO 270gr

mold. lt seems as accurate as a 250gr KT or a 300WFN... The 270gr

SAECO hits harder than the 250Keith or the 300gr WFN.. For ME that is..

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#198738 - 04/09/19 09:53 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sw282]
tradmark
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The 280 is the right length and the 300 eats into the powder capacity too much imho. I use the 280.

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#198744 - 04/09/19 10:33 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: tradmark]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
The 280 is the right length and the 300 eats into the powder capacity too much imho. I use the 280.


This. You want as much speed with this bullet as possible, and the 280 wins over the 300.
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#198751 - 04/09/19 11:25 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Whitworth]
Vance in AK.
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Thanks guys. That was kind of my thought but wasnt sure the extra 75ish fps would make up for the loss of momentum. I looked at the 300s a shop here has in stock of the crimp grove is WAY forward... No 280s local to compare but swifts pics online make it look like the 280 eats up a lot less case capacity.
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#198753 - 04/09/19 11:51 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Paul_H
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Can't help with the 44 loads, but can relate to killing a chronograph with a gas check. I decided to see how fast I could push my 310 gr cast bullets in my 480. They were a plain base design so I seated a gas check upside down in the case under the bullet. Before the range session I thought I should put a piece of lexan in front of the chrono for protection, but didn't end up bothering. I forget how many shots I got off before a gas check connected with the front of the chrony with enough force to put a healthy dent and kill the electronics. As I recall I was getting over 1400 fps.

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#198770 - 04/09/19 01:49 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Paul_H]
Vance in AK.
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Good to know im not alone Paul!
I think the muzzle brake on the 450 marlin barrel may have contributed to the separation.


Edited by Vance in AK. (04/09/19 01:51 PM)
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Matthew 6:33
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#198778 - 04/09/19 03:41 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Sawfish
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I have always liked 275-280 gr. bullets in the .44 Magnum. There was a reason that Speer made the 270 gr. its flagship bullet in the .44 magnum. It was also Winchesters .44 bullet weight of choice in the Black Talon ammunition. Barnes made a great .44 cal. 275 gr. bullet in its old original series. I ran some velocity tests on Black Talon factory ammunition some years back. The 270 grainers generated 1330 fps out of a 6.5" custom revolver and 1411 fps out of a 10.5" Super Blackhawk, which was faster than Remington, Norma, or Starfire 240 JHP factory loads in the same gun.
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#198785 - 04/09/19 05:36 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Sawfish]
Vance in AK.
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I ordered a couple boxes of the Swift 280s & another box of the Speer deep Curl 270s.
For now the Speers will be practice bullets & the swifts will be hunting bullets. I do want to do some type of destructive testing between the Swifts & the Speers to see how they compare.
I don't remember finding any negative comments regarding the Speers so I am curious... I do realize you USUALLY get what you pay for (at best).
Right now it's the beginning of bear season & I probably won't have time to do much but sight in & practice, practice, practice...

Dick, on that cow you killed with the 270 Speer, I know the bullet wasn't recovered, but did it appear there was any expansion? Did she go down quickly?
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198795 - 04/09/19 09:28 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sixshot
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Vance, she was in a bunched up herd of about 40 head & at the shot I lost track of her. It was a broadside shot so not much expansion because I didn't hit any ribs on either side. It was in pretty deep snow & when I got things sorted out she was laying about 40 yds away.
I think the 270 gr Gold Dot (Deep Curl) is a dandy bullet but I have limited experience with it. I have no doubt it would serve you well but I also think from what I've read the A Frame 280 gr bullet might be a better choice. If that 300 gr bullet has to be deep seated I would absolutely go with the 280 gr slug.

Dick

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#198806 - 04/09/19 10:32 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sixshot]
BBwheelgunner
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sounds like you are on track with it, let us know how you come out!
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#198809 - 04/10/19 02:12 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Thanks for the info franchise..

So james im shooting 44mag not 454. Would you still recomend the 300s? Looks like low 1200fps range at the muzzle.

Vance, You may take a black and moose with the lighter bullets but don`t risk it on a brown......You list black bear, moose and brown bear. If your going to use a 44 mag and brown bear is on your list then go with the 300.. You live there and I know you`ve seen how big these animals can get... One thing I found out while hunting Alaska is "that you never know what you can run into". My brown was NOT big and I was lucky to take him but I wish you could have seen the size of the big brown bear that I could not get a shot at....My God but these creatures are big and if Swift made a heavier A-frame for your 44 I would recommend it... Remember, the bear in the photos was "small".. If you don`t have enough bullet for them the only winner will be the brown bear.. Good luck and good hunting.
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#198820 - 04/10/19 10:39 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Whitworth
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I doubt 20 grains of bullet weight will make any difference in and of itself, however, a little additional velocity from the lighter bullet may help. JMHO.
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#198821 - 04/10/19 11:32 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Whitworth]
sw282
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My 270gr 44cal cast boolit is a SAECO#44439 240gr Keith type SWC

Gas Check design... Mine weighs 270gr because the gas check part

of mold was eliminated. lt gives the boolit added weight at the

base. Called ''beagling''- This is a common practice done to GC

molds. l bought the mold 'used' off the net. l suspect it was a

custom factory order because there are no additional machine marks

where the GC shoulder or step was originally. The box also says

'custom'. Many shooters like Elmer Keith preferred the wadcutter

shoulder of this design.. Cuts paper well and meat even better,,

according to 0le Elmer

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#198847 - 04/10/19 09:58 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sw282]
tradmark
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The speer is a good bullet and likely the best value there is. They really make the xtp expendable. Theyre better and cheaper. The aframes are much more consistent and much much tougher. Theyre easily twice the price and imho worth it.

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#198851 - 04/11/19 02:50 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sw282]
sixshot
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If I was going to shoot a large Brown bear with a 44 magnum using a cast bullet I would want more weight than a 270 gr bullet, even if that meant slowing it down a bit which might even help the bullet work better.
If I was going to use a premium jacketed bullet on the same bear I would ask that bullet to do as advertised & stay together so I would give up the minor 20 grs & make velocity work for me because that bullet is a "premium" bullet, run that baby up there!
Mostly I would want more gun & bullet if I was serious about taking a large Brown bear, 45 Colt minimum & 480 better!

Dick

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#198852 - 04/11/19 08:22 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sixshot]
Whitworth
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Well stated, Dick!
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#198855 - 04/11/19 09:36 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Whitworth]
Craig44
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I'm about to test them both and find out.

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#198856 - 04/11/19 09:56 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Craig44]
wvhitman
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I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. What about X bullets. I did my 2nd brown bear at 129 yds. with a 375 X in my .500 S&W. He did not move. The 4 petals of the Xs tear a little more tissue than HPs.

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#198863 - 04/11/19 11:08 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: wvhitman]
Vance in AK.
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Craig, fill me in on your plan!
And pleasekeep me posted!!!
Agreed an all counts Dick!
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Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198868 - 04/11/19 12:27 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Franchise
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I've used the 375 gr XPB in my 500 S&W Encore...it to me is the best compromise of expansion and penetration...that bullet loves velocity...the faster, the better performance...
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#198884 - 04/11/19 07:33 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Craig44]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
I'm about to test them both and find out.


on a brown bear???
only foolin Crag
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#198889 - 04/11/19 08:03 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Paul_H
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If you use a cast bullet designed to be loaded to length of the cylinder and you have a strong 44 such as a Ruger, the 44 will have no problem pushing a 330 gr cast 1300 fps. Not to claim that makes it a dramatically more effective killer, but just throwing that out there for those looking to get the most out of the 44.

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#198891 - 04/11/19 09:08 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Paul_H]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
If you use a cast bullet designed to be loaded to length of the cylinder and you have a strong 44 such as a Ruger, the 44 will have no problem pushing a 330 gr cast 1300 fps. Not to claim that makes it a dramatically more effective killer, but just throwing that out there for those looking to get the most out of the 44.

Paul, On one Alaskan hunt I carried my 44 Redhawk on the belt and had it loaded with Garrett 330 gr ammo...I never clocked the speed but its rated at 1400fps.. it was pretty darn accurate at 100 with a 4X scope...
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#198893 - 04/12/19 02:38 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sixshot]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
If I was going to shoot a large Brown bear with a 44 magnum using a cast bullet I would want more weight than a 270 gr bullet, even if that meant slowing it down a bit which might even help the bullet work better.
If I was going to use a premium jacketed bullet on the same bear I would ask that bullet to do as advertised & stay together so I would give up the minor 20 grs & make velocity work for me because that bullet is a "premium" bullet, run that baby up there!
Mostly I would want more gun & bullet if I was serious about taking a large Brown bear, 45 Colt minimum & 480 better!



Dick


Well said, like someone who knows what he is talking about!

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#198894 - 04/12/19 02:40 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: wvhitman]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: wvhitman
I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. What about X bullets. I did my 2nd brown bear at 129 yds. with a 375 X in my .500 S&W. He did not move. The 4 petals of the Xs tear a little more tissue than HPs.



Yes they do. That said, i would still with the aframes in 44 mag vs the xpb in that caliber. Just my opinion. I know of nothing that does more damage than the barnes when it opens properly!

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#198899 - 04/12/19 10:15 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: tradmark]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
 Originally Posted By: wvhitman
I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. What about X bullets. I did my 2nd brown bear at 129 yds. with a 375 X in my .500 S&W. He did not move. The 4 petals of the Xs tear a little more tissue than HPs.



Yes they do. That said, i would still with the aframes in 44 mag vs the xpb in that caliber. Just my opinion. I know of nothing that does more damage than the barnes when it opens properly!


I used XPBs on my mountain lion and the damage was impressive to say the least.
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#198902 - 04/12/19 12:31 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Whitworth]
sixshot
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Most of you know I have very little experience with jacketed bullets but when I hunted Africa I did use some in single shot handguns at the time although I also had my FA 475. My bullets in the single shots were Barnes X's & as you know they are dependent on velocity to work their magic, slow them down & they can act much like a solid.
I always dropped down one or two bullet weights in single shots so I could keep my velocity up & it saved my bacon on a hard angle on a Blue Wildebeest. It was a long shot & almost facing me & I was shooting my 338/284 with a 185 gr Barnes X running hard!
Any other bullet with few exceptions probably would have failed me, you guys might know. Anyway, the bullet went just into the right front shoulder on a steep angle, all the way across the body & broke the left hind leg, knocking the bull down. It bounced up only to be greeted with another, that ended it. Velocity is a must with the Barnes X bullets, that little needle HP needs some help. The king of all Warthogs found out the same thing when that same bullet absolutely destroyed both front shoulder bones, you could have dropped an orange through the hole. This was one of three Warthogs I shot.




Dick


Edited by sixshot (04/13/19 03:52 AM)

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#198904 - 04/12/19 12:54 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: sixshot]
Franchise
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I remember reading about this hunt in The Sixgunner. You also did the testing for the 416 Lockhart round in the Bullberry Encore
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#198905 - 04/12/19 01:02 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Craig44
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Craig, fill me in on your plan!
And pleasekeep me posted!!!

I ordered another 60lbs of SIMTEST. Gonna test all the handgun A-frames at various speeds. The Punch, Barnes Buster, Lehigh monolithic solids. A few more cast bullets. Gold Dots. 10mm's. Looking to find out the effect velocity has on penetration with the solids, among other things. Starting with "Ruger only" .45Colt through .454 and .450BM. I don't have a .460 so hopefully the .450 will be close enough out of a rifle length barrel. Will also be testing some 50,000psi .44Mag loads and a bunch of .45's. Also plan on testing a few rifle loads. I'll write it all up and post a link here when it's done.

No brown bears. I'll go get a Cape buffalo before Alaska.
;\)

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#198910 - 04/12/19 07:22 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Craig44]
tradmark
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I recommend africa before AK.

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#198918 - 04/13/19 02:54 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Craig44]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44


No brown bears. I'll go get a Cape buffalo before Alaska.
;\)


I hope you get to do it.... Its fun....
But there`s not many who have taken a brown bear with a handgun when compared to other big game. When you have to stoop over to get through a "cave " made in the alders by some big salmon eating brown and come across strands of his hair above eye level and not knowing what`s around the next turn is un-describable excitement. To watch a big sow kill a salmon with a bite of her jaws then hand the limp fish to her cub (not one but three) is amazing. Its an experience like non other...There`s a couple of other members who have also taken brown bear who could tell you more then I...Either way good luck and good hunting....
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#198920 - 04/13/19 03:59 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
sixshot
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Sure glad I didn't get in a hurry to shoot that 416 Lockhart, it would have been a disaster! Someone doing the loading for Fred at Bullberry was trying to cause him some grief, they almost pulled it off. I pulled some bullets & checked the loads before I started testing, it sure saved me & Fred a lot of sufferiing & him a bunch of money! So I started over.

Dick

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#198927 - 04/13/19 01:17 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Craig44
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 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
But there`s not many who have taken a brown bear with a handgun when compared to other big game.

True. I've just never had a 'thing' for Alaska in general or bears in particular. I've been and heard all my uncle's stories about hunting in Alaska, Canada and muskox in the arctic but it's just not high on my bucket list.

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#198931 - 04/13/19 05:55 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Craig44]
Vance in AK.
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 2272
Loc: Kenai, Alaska

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Just want to say thanks to everyone who helped with load data, ideas, etc!
My 280s arrived from midway today. Local guy has a box of 300s that have been on the shelf literalky for several years i will try and talk him down on monday. I will probably use speer 270s for my practice ammo (i have 200 bullets). I will keep you guys posted. Thanks again!
_________________________
Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198942 - 04/13/19 09:43 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 9169
Loc: New Jersey

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Vance, Good luck and stay safe...
_________________________
Life member-NRA-SCI
Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067
Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s
"I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"

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#198978 - 04/15/19 04:32 PM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Vance in AK.
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 2272
Loc: Kenai, Alaska

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Thanks James!
Don't want to be a Bob...

Talked to the guy that runs the sporting good section about the 300gr swifts. Turned out they had 2 boxes & he gave them to me for $38 each. About $20 a box cheaper than Midway when you figure shipping. Couldn't pass that up! After I get some $280gr loads worked up we will see how those do.
_________________________
Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198988 - 04/16/19 09:44 AM Re: 280 or 300gr Swift Aframe in 44mag? [Re: Vance in AK.]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 9169
Loc: New Jersey

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_________________________
Life member-NRA-SCI
Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067
Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s
"I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"

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