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#198467 - 04/01/19 06:39 PM HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY
45MAN
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TO MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ARMS OUT THERE IN HANDGUNHUNT LAND THAT SWEAR BY "HARDCAST" BUILLETS FOR THE BIG AND BAD STUFF, PLEASE POST PICTURES OF ANY CAST BULLETS YOU HAVE RECOVERED FROM BIG STUFF SO WE CAN SEE HOW THE BULLET MAY HAVE FARED. DATA ON THE BULLET, ITS RECOVERED WEIGHT, MUZZLE VELOCITY, DISTANCE, PENETRATION AND DEVIATION WOULD ALSO BE APPRECIATED.
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#198479 - 04/02/19 10:24 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: 45MAN]
Whitworth
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I'll play. At the first Bovine Bash about five years ago-ish, I killed a very large water buffalo bull (that went over a ton in live weight) with a Garrett load out of my .454 Super Blackhawk (Lucy). It was the 405 RHO .45 Colt load (RHO = Redhawk Only). This load clocked right around 1,200 fps out of my revolver. Three shots through the shoulder - one exited and two were literally poking through the skin on the offside. These bullets performed exceedingly well.



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#198481 - 04/02/19 11:46 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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BIG animals require BIG bullets that do not deform upon impact. Deforming upon impact, or too quickly upon breaking the near-side hide, sheds bullet momentum and causes a rapid deceleration of the bullet.
A hard-cast BIG bullet that resists deforming and retains momentum to penetrate can reach the vitals or crush the central nervous system and result in a quick kill, or an immobilized animal that can be approached to administer the killing shot.
Deer-size animals and others like it are not BIG game in the purest sense of the word. An expanding bullet that dumps energy quickly after penetrating the rib-cage can be very effective. An animal with two extremely damaged lungs is not going anywhere fast. A slightly built animal does not demand deep (3 to 5 feet) of penetration as BIG game would require.
So use A-frame bullets to have some expansion with good weight retention and Nosler designs that retain weight and still expand. You will be well served with the animals that go under 800 to 900 pounds. But once 1000 pounds and above are reached it is penetration that is needed to reach the vitals or to break-down the animal to deliver a killing shot.

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#198502 - 04/02/19 04:18 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
tradmark
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With a 454 or above like a 460 or 500?s aframes will penetrate handily in all directions. 44 mags and 41?s on down id go solid

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#198506 - 04/02/19 05:00 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: tradmark]
Franchise
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I think that Jeff460 has never seen what a 300 gr or 325 gr A Frame can do on large dangerous game out of the 454 and 460....Cape Buff, Water Buff and even heard last week of a lady hunter that killed a hippo with a 325 gr A Frame out of a 454.....don't believe the fake news, it's obvious when folks have themselves never actually tried out certain Bullets...big bore bonded expanding bullets penetrate and reach and destroy the vitals on LARGE game....monometal bullets do what HC bullets do, but a lot better....if a non expanding bullet is desired.....
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#198507 - 04/02/19 05:56 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: 45MAN]
cmnash
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I don't know if it's big and bad, but this .44 WFN was recovered from a 491 lb bear.

It is a 320 grain 44 Magnum loaded by Reeds Ammunition to a claimed 1200 fps. I haven't chronographed them, but have no reason to doubt that number.
The bullet struck the treed bear in the cheek under the eye, then traveled up the spine, and stopped in the peak of the shoulders. Death was instant.
I don't mind that it expanded some.

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#198514 - 04/03/19 12:21 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Franchise]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think that Jeff460 has never seen what a 300 gr or 325 gr A Frame can do on large dangerous game out of the 454 and 460....Cape Buff, Water Buff and even heard last week of a lady hunter that killed a hippo with a 325 gr A Frame out of a 454.....don't believe the fake news, it's obvious when folks have themselves never actually tried out certain Bullets...big bore bonded expanding bullets penetrate and reach and destroy the vitals on LARGE game....monometal bullets do what HC bullets do, but a lot better....if a non expanding bullet is desired.....



I met one at the nra show in dallas that killed an elephant with a 325 aframe from a 454. Cape buff, bear, moose are all not a problem! Evidently some good lady hunters running around with revolvers.

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#198515 - 04/03/19 12:29 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: tradmark]
tradmark
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Ive got some ill post tomorrow

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#198523 - 04/03/19 05:16 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: cmnash]
Sawfish
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 Originally Posted By: cmnash
I don't know if it's big and bad, but this .44 WFN was recovered from a 491 lb bear.

It is a 320 grain 44 Magnum loaded by Reeds Ammunition to a claimed 1200 fps. I haven't chronographed them, but have no reason to doubt that number.
The bullet struck the treed bear in the cheek under the eye, then traveled up the spine, and stopped in the peak of the shoulders. Death was instant.
I don't mind that it expanded some.


Excellent!
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#198525 - 04/03/19 06:01 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Sawfish]
Jeff460
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This is Jeff460 and I would say that an A-frame could do all that you say. But in a 44 magnum or heavy 45 Colt load it may not push it with the speed to reach the vitals from a shot to the departing area of a large game animal. And that is what I was referring to. The earlier post was specific as to what to load in a 44 magnum. I agree that 454 Casull and up can attain the velocity to use them on whatever walks or crawls or advances with menace to cause harm. So please forgive me for offending your sensibilities on this thread. Go in Peace!!!

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#198528 - 04/03/19 10:24 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
45MAN
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ON THE LEFT A .452 320gr PUNCH BULLET, MV AROUND 1,625fps OUT OF A 12 INCH FA 454, RECOVERED FROM A CAPE BUFFALO, PICTURE PERFECT BULLET INTEGRITY/WEIGHT RETENTION. ON THE RIGHT A 325gr WFN, MV AROUND 1,300fps OUT OF A CUSTOM 5 1/2 INCH 45 COLT TLA REVOLVER, RECOVERED FROM A WATER BUFFALO, RETAINED WEIGHT 313grs. BULLET SHOWS NOSE DEFORMITY BUT WORKED OK AT THAT VELOCITY. THE CAPE BUFFALO SHOT WAS PROBABLY AT 50 OR LESS YARDS, THE WATER BUFFALO SHOT WAS PROBABLY AT 25 OR LESS YARDS.

IN 1996 I USED THE SAME 325 WFN AT OVER 1,600fps, USING 45 COLT CASES IN A FA 454 REVOLVER (IN A 45 COLT CYLINDER) TO SHOOT A BIG BULL CAPE ELAND, COMPLETE PENETRATION THRU THE SHOULDERS, NO BULLET RECOVERED. A FRIEND SHOT A SIMILAR SIZED ELAND IN THE SHOULDER WITH A 375 H&H RIFLE, USING A 300gr BEARCLAW, AND THE BULLET ONLY WENT 1/2 WAY THRU THE ELAND. THAT WFN WORKED THAT TIME, AT THAT VELOICITY, BUT I DO NOT TRUST CAST BULLETS ANYMORE ON BIG GAME AT THOSE HIGHER VELOCITIES.

I SHOOT A LOT OF CAST BULLETS, MOSTLY IN 45 COLT, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE BEST AT UNDER 1,300fps, PUSH 'EM TOO FAST AND BULLET INTEGRITY WILL SUFFER.


Edited by 45MAN (04/04/19 09:53 AM)
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#198530 - 04/03/19 11:41 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: 45MAN]
Raptortrapper
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I've been shooting hardcast from Cast Performance and Rimrock. Never had any issues with either of them, but I run them well under 1300fps. Haven't taken much game with the 335gr wlngc from Cast Performance, but I have a TON of confidence in that bullet out of a 45 Colt. I'd take on the world with a bucket full of those.
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#198537 - 04/04/19 10:10 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Raptortrapper]
45MAN
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ON THE LEFT A 340gr .476 18BHN THUMPER BULLET, ON THE RIGHT, SAME BULLET, ALL 172grs OF IT, AFTER BEING SHOT INTO A BOVINE's HEAD, AT A MV OF 1,398fps, AT VERY CLOSE RANGE. BULLET FAILED TO GO ALL THE WAY THRU. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS GOING TOO FAST. I AM WORKING ON A 480 RUGER ACQUISITION, AND FOR IT I PLAN TO WORK UP A 1,200fps LOAD FOR THE THUMPER. FOR MY 475 LINEBAUGH I WILL STICK WITH THE 330gr LEHIGH WFN MONOMETAL BULLETS, BUT PLAN ON LOOKING FOR A 1,500fps LOAD vs. MY PRESENT 1,362fps LOAD. BTW, WITH THE 1,362fps LOAD I GOT 2 PASS THROUGHS ON THE BOVINE, ONE IN THE RIGHT HIP, OUT THE LEFT SHOULDER AND THE OTHER BROADSIDE THRU THE SHOULDERS.
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"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.

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#198823 - 04/10/19 11:49 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
sw282
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lf you want a really HARD cast boolit simply make them of

ZINC using the same mold normally for lead boolits. They would

would weigh 20-25% less than a lead boolit tho. BNH of ZINC is app 70-80.

Quite a bit harder than a hard cast lead of around bnh20/25..

Pot/melt would be app 150deg F more for zinc. lt wont hurt the

bore either... Remember that bullet jackets are made from brass

or gilding metal.. An Alloy of copper and ZINC.


Edited by sw282 (04/10/19 11:52 AM)

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#198842 - 04/10/19 04:30 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: sw282]
Jeff460
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You cannot use a furnace to melt zinc in for anything you expect to or have used for lead. The bullets made need to be .001 smaller than the bore of the caliber.
a. Use one dedicated furnace JUST for zinc.
b. Spin the cutting-off spur before the zinc hardens.
c. Zinc is too hard to be sized so the bullet mold must cast the bullet exactly .001 smaller than the bore measurement.
d. No lube is necessary as the bullet will be HARD!!!
e. Zinc is only 63% of the weight of same size of bullet cast in lead.

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#198848 - 04/10/19 10:01 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
tradmark
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Or........just shoot a monolithic solid copper bullet if a cast lead wont work.


Edited by tradmark (04/10/19 10:02 PM)

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#198850 - 04/10/19 10:10 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: tradmark]
Jeff460
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EXACTLY!!! Cutting Edge Bullets ROCK!!!!

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#198858 - 04/11/19 10:18 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
EXACTLY!!! Cutting Edge Bullets ROCK!!!!


LeHigh bullets rock more (bigger meplats)!
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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

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#198866 - 04/11/19 11:54 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Will Cutting Edge Bullets ever consider taking your suggestions for bigger meplats? I am working with them to come out with a 160 grain Copper Safari Solid 7 mm bullet for use in 1 in 9 or 1 in 8 twist barrels. I bought an American Ruger rifle in stainless steel with a 22 inch barrel in 7 mm-08 for my son. He likes to deer hunt. The Safari Solid would be for any African Safari or for any African animal hunt in America. A W.D.M. Karamojo Bell tribute load as it were. I love that caliber in a stalking-type rifle where getting close is the goal. A shot of 300 yards would be very long.

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#198867 - 04/11/19 12:10 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
Will Cutting Edge Bullets ever consider taking your suggestions for bigger meplats? I am working with them to come out with a 160 grain Copper Safari Solid 7 mm bullet for use in 1 in 9 or 1 in 8 twist barrels. I bought an American Ruger rifle in stainless steel with a 22 inch barrel in 7 mm-08 for my son. He likes to deer hunt. The Safari Solid would be for any African Safari or for any African animal hunt in America. A W.D.M. Karamojo Bell tribute load as it were. I love that caliber in a stalking-type rifle where getting close is the goal. A shot of 300 yards would be very long.


They make probably the deepest penetrating bullets available. The smaller meplat is a nob to rifles and limiting feeding issues, but the meplat is still wide enough to cause a lot of damage. They actually did make up some 80% meplat bullets for me to try and they were outstanding when we tested them on a Watusi. But the production bullets remain with a 67% meplat.

As a contrast, this is the new LeHigh 400 grain .500 solid (not available for retail yet) as loaded by Buffalo Bore, compared to a Punch bullet.

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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

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#198869 - 04/11/19 12:32 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Whitworth]
Franchise
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That bullet is the answer to what a lot have wanted in a HC bullet, just without the shortcomings...that bullet should do the trick on every large dangerous game animal that walks planet earth..impressive..
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#198871 - 04/11/19 12:44 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Franchise]
Jeff460
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That bullet is the answer to what a lot have wanted in a HC bullet, just without the shortcomings...that bullet should do the trick on every large dangerous game animal that walks planet earth..impressive..

AGREED!!! Great behind-the-scenes advocating Mr. Prasac. It is great to have such a capable ambassador for the Handgun Hunters Guild!!! Thank You for ALL YOU Do!!!

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#198876 - 04/11/19 01:34 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Jeff460]
KRal
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Max, that bullet looks like it would hurt!
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#198878 - 04/11/19 01:40 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: KRal]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: KRal
Max, that bullet looks like it would hurt!


Haha! I plan to find out!
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Max Prasac

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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s


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#200236 - 06/24/19 10:09 AM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: Whitworth]
45MAN
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I AM RESURRECTING THIS TOPIC FOR RON K WHO WANTS TO START HUNTING WITH HIS COLT NF IN 45 COLT.
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#200559 - 07/09/19 12:27 PM Re: HARDCAST BULLET INTEGRITY [Re: 45MAN]
cherokeetracker
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Ron K has several choices for his Frontier.
All of these will be in the Standard Pressure. I certainly refuse to try and make my Colt SAA into something that it is NOT.
Garrett makes his 260 or 265 gr stuff for 2nd and third Gen Colt. around 1000fps.
Barnes makes some good ammo with a 200gr XPB they rate 1025fps
Remington uses the same bullet and it is a little slower and about $4.00 less per box.
Buffalo Bore uses same bullet and velocity is similar.
For Deer or Hogs that Barnes works.
Winchester makes a Bonded Bullet in their Defender ammo, (again this is loaded ammo to Standard Pressures).
For those who remember it looks like the Black talon bullet only in a copper version. Unfortunately, this ammo shot 4" high in my SAA. I would someday like to try it in my Trapper.
Rimrock and GT bullets are 2 bullets that I have not got to try yet, but I think (In a cast) they would hopefully work, at the slower velocities needed for the COLTs.
I did try the Hawk Bullet last year on a Deer and it did the job. I did not like that soft of a bullet out of my SAA.
Recently I used the same load and Bullet (260gr) out of my Rossi Trapper (16" barrel) and it proved that a soft bullet can work well with correct bullet placement.
Bullets and loads have to be tested in each individual gun for accuracy, then if it does not have a proven track record, I would like to see or hear of a Range report.
200gr - 265gr should work fine with 900 to 1000fps
I do not always roll my own,,, When I can get Federal or Barnes loaded ammo, I grab them. My time is very valuable. I see no need to reinvent the wheel.
Charles

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