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#198835 - 04/10/19 01:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Franchise
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Registered: 12/21/08
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Loc: Castalia, NC

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The best way to honestly see what bullet does what, is to test them yourselves...I learned a lot over the years shooting different animals of different sizes, using different bullets..first hand experience is the best teacher
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#198837 - 04/10/19 02:33 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
JDK
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Registered: 01/18/04
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Poor Hornady XTPs
To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer!
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#198838 - 04/10/19 03:04 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Whitworth
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Registered: 01/15/09
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 Originally Posted By: JDK
Poor Hornady XTPs
To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer!


But not on anything else! LOL!
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#198839 - 04/10/19 03:54 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
45MAN
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I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE PROBLEMS WITH XTP's ARE A WORKMANSHIP ISSUE, RATHER I BELIEVE IT IS AN ISSUE WITH ANY REVOLVER BULLET THAT RELIES ON POST IMPACT DEFORMITY FOR ITS PERFORMANCE, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALL RANGE OF AVAILABLE VELOCITIES. PRESENTLY THERE ARE FEW EXPANDING REVOLVER BULLETS THAT CAN PERFORM WELL AND PREDICTABLY OVER A BROAD VELOCITY SPAN, THE AFRAMES BEING ONE OF THE FEW. I HAVE ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WOULD LIKE KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IMPACT BEFORE I SHOOT IT, BUT THE AFRAMES DO PROVIDE AN ALTERNATIVE TO ABSOLUTE BULLET INTEGRITY BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY PREDICTABLE IN THEIR POST IMPACT DEFORMITY. I HAVE KILLED A LOT OF ANIMALS WITH XTP's BUT NOW JUST CONSIDER THEM TO BE PRACTICE BULLETS. FOR USE ON GAME, I AM WILLING TO PAY A LITTLE MORE PER BULLET AS I WANT TO ELIMINATE AS MANY VARIABLES IN BULLET PERFORMANCE AS POSSIBLE.
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#198846 - 04/10/19 09:54 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement.



Faster the bullet if it maintains its integrity = more penetration but also more damage. I can say with absolute certainty that running any monolithic solid or barnes/afeame at over 2000fps does remarkeably more damage and penetrates deeper than the same bullet fired out of a 454. Also out penetrates anything from the linebaugh creations as well. More damage too. This equals much better performance on game. I can provide the pictures of the game ive shot to make that statement as well. And lots of em.

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#198849 - 04/10/19 10:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Jeff460
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Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress.
Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address.

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#198853 - 04/11/19 08:33 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress.
Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address.


The OP was asking what we collectively think he should use, so obviously the discussion is covering all types of bullets. You mentioned a 1,300 to 1,800 fps window for cast bullets in a previous post, but that velocity ceiling is too high for the material, but not too high for quality expanding bullets or monolithic bullets.

Have you tested any of these velocity windows on game? I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how well A-frames (for example) kill when pushed hard and placed well. You have an X-frame which is a good candidate for higher velocities and great for testing/experimentation.

There is nothing less humane than a slow death, and I personally always strive for a quick finish and that is why I like to push a little harder.
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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

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#198854 - 04/11/19 09:13 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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I mentioned the study was using rifles and handguns later and including 458 magnum rifles. I referenced the study parameters as I faintly remembered. I now believe it was a high of 2100 fps as the upper window of when penetration would resume to take off and be added. The window was from around 1300 to 1400 fps with any bullet, not just hard cast, to the rifle velocities of 2100 fps that diminished penetration gains were being seen. It was a phenom I observed empirically. I want short range hunting like shotguns and revolvers. I am not for all out X-frame velocities. I shoot 3 inch 12 gauge not 3 1/2. I shoot open sight revolvers and keep shots inside 50 yards as a rule. So the platform is a 500 S&W shooting 500 JRH and a 460 S&W using 454 Casull. The all-out can be done but I am not going all-out because I choose not to, right now.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/11/19 09:15 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198870 - 04/11/19 12:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Franchise
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Registered: 12/21/08
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Have you yourself Jeff ever put any of these experimental results to a test on game, with a handgun? Just curious...we all have read such data, but it is a little different when you, yourself put the "lab results" to work on live game with a handgun...I'm just curious
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#198872 - 04/11/19 12:53 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Jeff460
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I work 71 hours per week and every weekend. I have done penetration tests but no kills of anything approaching 1000 pounds or more. But preparation is half the fun. So are you inviting me to a hunt? I am up for it. If I am not at work...

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