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#198824 - 04/10/19 12:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Registered: 12/01/17
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That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation, so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM (Rotations Per Minute) to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result.
In lighter-framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited, so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too, relatively speaking. If a heavy hard-cast/penetration bullet can go completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside with moderate velocity, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy penetrating bullet of some maker. Whitaker is correct in the make and model name of the bullet, as he posted further down in response to my treatise.
So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration.
I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. But I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back. The test ran closer to 2100 fps as an extreme limit as rifles were also being tested.
This is just my opinion, so please add it to the discussion.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:23 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198825 - 04/10/19 12:15 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
cmnash
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Registered: 07/23/10
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Loc: Clarkesville, GA

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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.



 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I completely agree Whitworth!!!


OH SNAP!

Whitworth and Franchise agree about something?

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#198826 - 04/10/19 12:21 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: cmnash]
45MAN
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IN REVOLVERS, BASICALLY I BELIEVE THE SWEET SPOT FOR MOST CAST BULLETS IS UNDER 1,300fps, THE SWEET SPOT FOR PREMIUM FMJ's OR MONOLITHICS OR AFRAMES IS AS FAST AS YOU CAN SHOOT THEM ACCURATELY, AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.
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"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.

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#198827 - 04/10/19 12:40 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 9673
Loc: Virginia

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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result.
In lighter framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too. If a heavy hard-cast bullet can penetrate completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy hard-cast bullet.
So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration.
I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back.
Just my opinion so add it to the discussion.


You don't want to run a hardcast bullet to 1,800 fps and frankly, I wouldn't run them over 1,400. It will overtax the material.

Brian Pearce was using CorBon Penetrators when he inadvertently killed the two Cape buffalo.
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#198828 - 04/10/19 12:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Whitworth
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Registered: 01/15/09
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 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.


Haha! The sweet spot is on the shelf!
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Max Prasac

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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s


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#198829 - 04/10/19 12:48 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: cmnash]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: cmnash
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.



 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I completely agree Whitworth!!!


OH SNAP!

Whitworth and Franchise agree about something?


Hahaha! We actually agree on a lot more than most think! We're just trying to keep y'all on your toes!
_________________________
Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s


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#198830 - 04/10/19 12:55 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Jeff460
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At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198831 - 04/10/19 01:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Registered: 12/01/17
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Loc: Kansas

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I stand corrected Whitaker. Bullet integrity is a given with Corbon Penetrator bullets. The velocity though was more than adequate, and that falls within the range I posted earlier. Velocity is not king!!! The bullet diameter, its construction/integrity and where it is placed reigns supreme. Velocity, up to a point, is a friend and companion, but it will constantly diminish as the bullet exits the barrel.
Rotations per minute imparted by the rifling is a constant though, so the drilling effect of higher velocity must be accompanied by bullets of unquestionable integrity to be utilized effectively. What say you sir?


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198833 - 04/10/19 01:23 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Randy M
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Registered: 07/04/11
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 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.


About 11 fps as measured by the speed at which they fell out of my hands and into the trash can.
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The meat won't fry if the lead don't fly.

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#198834 - 04/10/19 01:31 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Loc: Kansas

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I noted what you have stated and given you status for doing so in my earlier post. So you say 1400 fps is your ceiling with a hard-cast bullet. I saw on a post that you can cast bullets out of zinc and that creates a HARD cast bullet. What would that make you think of?
I researched it but zinc, while very hard, is just 63% the weight of an equal amount of lead. And less weight means less momentum. That means no matter its attribute of no deformation at high velocities, I am not interested. Not to mention that zinc cannot be used in any other furnace crucible because it is not compatible with lead in the least. A .001 smaller zinc bullet than the size of the bore would sure clean the lead out of a gun barrel. Just shoot one or two shots out of your barrel and POOF the lead is all gone.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:38 PM)

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