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#198280 - 03/25/19 07:29 PM Cast or expanding for large big game???
Vance in AK.
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Ok, getting back into handgun hunting and starting to put together some 44 mag loads.
I never killed anything with the handgun when I was packing it, but 44 mag, 45 colt, or 480 I always loaded a heavy for caliber hardcast.
A few years ago I killed a nice mid size bull moose at about 100yds with my Marlin guide gun in 450 Marlin with handloads that had a 420 hardcast doing just shy of 2000fps. I was less that impressed. 1 shot in shoulders & 3 shots were in the heart/lung area. He walked around 150 yds. Had to finish him on the ground with shot 5. 1 bullet recovered from offside shoulder looked like you could load it again. So I know my 44 mag with 300 or 320s in the 1300-1350fps range will perform about the same.
And yes i know I should have tried to break the shoulders.
BUT, now I'm wondering id some controlled expansion bullet might serve me better.
Critters I get to hunt reguraly are black bear, brown bear, & moose. I might load a different (lighter) bullet for black bear than the others, but where I live large (9'+) brown bear are always a possibility.
Based on your experiences, what would your recommendations be?
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Vance in AK.

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#198282 - 03/25/19 07:42 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Randy M
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Swift A-frame

Speer Deep Curl


Edited by Randy M (03/25/19 07:45 PM)
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#198283 - 03/25/19 08:04 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
Franchise
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I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.
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#198284 - 03/25/19 08:06 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Raptortrapper
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.


Uh oh.... Here we go!


Black bears aren't hard to kill. I preferred a 45 Colt with 335gr hardcast from cast performance. It's overkill, but my goodness is it deadly!!

I don't have experience with the other critters you mentioned...yet!
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#198285 - 03/25/19 08:31 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Vance in AK.
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Randy M, do you have personal experience with the deep curl on heavy big game mouse or brown bear size?
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198286 - 03/25/19 08:36 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Franchise
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The best example is all of the Cape Buffalo that are falling with ease to the 454 and 460 with Swift A Frames and similar expanding bullets...once folks actually use them themselves, they are believers
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#198287 - 03/25/19 08:43 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
racksmasher1
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Fact!

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#198288 - 03/25/19 08:48 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Randy M
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Randy M, do you have personal experience with the deep curl on heavy big game mouse or brown bear size?


Nope. Just a lot of impressive results on deer and hogs.
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#198292 - 03/25/19 08:59 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.


Mine fell easily to a non expanding solid, as have a bunch more really big animals I?ve killed. When your chosen cartridge starts out at a half inch in diameter, expansion isn?t so critical. That said, it all depends on the cartridge and the game. Some revolver cartridges lend themselves well to higher velocities like the .454 and the .460. Others don?t that have limited case capacities. Where you can generate velocity, you might as well take advantage of it with a good expanding bullet that can withstand the impacts. It also depends on the game. If elephant or some other really thick skinned animal is on the menu, I?ll take a monolithic solid - at the highest achievable velocity ( where accuracy isn?t compromised). The .460 is a monster with A-frames, but really unimpressive with XTPs...

Some game is more susceptible to the shock offered by high velocities such as deer, bear and cats, and I firmly believe that you are well served with a quality expanding bullet at a higher velocity (it?s relative, when we?re not talking bottle-necked rifle cartridges). XPBs are dynamite on mountain lions!

I know that cast bullets seem to be a divisive topic, but a good quality cast will work like a charm if used within the parameters they were designed to work within (like all bullets). If you push them too hard you are asking for trouble, but that?s not the fault of the bullet. In many instances they are very good medicine.
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#198294 - 03/25/19 09:20 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Raptortrapper
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I'm gonna have to try these Deep Curls. Never heard of them!
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#198295 - 03/25/19 09:20 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Randy M
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Well, it?s about that time of year and we haven?t had one of these threads in awhile. Lol.
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#198296 - 03/25/19 09:33 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
Franchise
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Its honesty comes down to personal preference and what works for you (each individual..gun/bullet/game animal) if a bullet does not impress you...try another...sometimes you'll be surprised how well a different bullet might work
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#198297 - 03/25/19 09:44 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
Raptortrapper
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 Originally Posted By: Randy M
Well, it?s about that time of year and we haven?t had one of these threads in awhile. Lol.


OOOOHHHH MAN!!!!! You should have seen the large vs magnum primer thread a few years back! It was one of those things that we don't even mention any more! To say the P word just in passing almost got ya exiled after that. It was seriously worse than politics!
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#198298 - 03/25/19 10:34 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
wheelguns
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Those of us who have been here awhile,have all been down that road enough times that I don't think much will come of the bullet debate. Both have there place,and pretty much everyone knows the others preferences in bullets.

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#198299 - 03/25/19 10:37 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: wheelguns]
Raptortrapper
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Oh I agree! But it brings back some memories!!
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#198301 - 03/25/19 10:43 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
wheelguns
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Don't it though. LOL!!! The primer thing was to the point of asinine.


Edited by wheelguns (03/25/19 10:45 PM)

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#198302 - 03/25/19 11:10 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
JDK
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No personal experience, but I've heard two things about moose. They're not exceptionally hard to kill, but it can take awhile for them to realize they're dead. I've read of them absorbing killing shots from 375 H&H and 458 Magnum rifles and continuing to wander about and eat until they fall down. Your 450 load seems like it should've been deadly, but animals are funny sometimes. Whether an expanding bullet is right for Brown bear is something I cannot speak to, but it seems the classic stories I've read about hunting them with handguns tends to involve heavy HC lead. But, bullets are also much better now than when Larry Kelly and JD Jones were pioneering the sport of taking really big game with handguns. That's a long way to say, I don't know, but good luck and be careful!
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#198308 - 03/26/19 12:55 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Vance in AK.
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Trust me guys ive seen plenty of these type threads come and go here. Ive been away for a while but ive been a member here for over 15 yrs (i remember the old forum) and have over 2000 posts si ive seen just about every "argument".
But as John said technology does change... i was firmly in the hardcast camp but after my rifle experience i have concerns. The country i live in has a lot of thick brush and swamps in a lot of the areas so im looking for short blood trails. For now ill probably be sticking with hc but if i could find a heavy jacketed bullet that penetrated well but had some sharp edges to open things up just a bit i wouldnt mind a bit. Moose arent especially hard to kill (for an animal there size but every part of them, hide or bone is thick and tough so a whitetail bullet wont cut it. And of course i want 1 load for every animal because in the fall all 3 are in season and inhabit the same places.
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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#198310 - 03/26/19 01:29 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Raptortrapper
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What about a bonded bullet of some sort then? Kind of the best of both worlds, I think?? Perhaps that's what the Deep Curls are?

Just thinking out loud...

I'd still vote for hardcast though. But I have no experience with those critters, so not real helpful. Just speculating I guess.
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#198311 - 03/26/19 01:33 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sixshot
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Vance, it's the old Ford vs Chevy argument we always get into & everyone gets a bloody nose once in a while, then we shake hands & have a good laugh....who won?
In your case because of the big bears, use the very best bullet you can buy because it might come down to one bullet. The really good bonded jacketed or flat nose solids have never been better & velocity doesn't phase them.
Good cast bullets will always have their place but you have to understand 2 things with cast, speed & hardness. If they match you are fine, get either one out of it's comfort zone & it's easy to fail.
Of course all of the above depends on bullet placement, we all agree on that, but if they are the same & we're hunting in Alaska where big starts at 6-700 lbs & can easily go twice that then you have to rethink your bullet selection.
Your moose sounds like he was one tough son of a gun, that happens even with that big hammer you were hitting him with.
I shot my Idaho bull with a Ruger SRH 480 & a 370 gr cast bullet at about 1050 fps through both lungs, one shot & about 6-7 seconds & he plowed into the snow. Maybe if I had shot the other bull standing next to him it would have been an out come just like what you had. That's why hunting is never the same.
One difference, my cast bullet was a softnose cast, but went clear through both lungs at about 45 yds offhand.

Dick

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#198314 - 03/26/19 07:03 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
45MAN
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FOR ME HERE ARE SOME MEGA-IMPORTANT KEYS TO BIG GAME HUNTING WITH REVOLVERS: 1) LARGE CALIBER (I MOSTLY USE 45 COLTS/454's), 2) BULLET INTEGRITY, WHICH ELIMINATES MOST CAST BULLETS PUSHED AT OR OVER 1,300fps, 3) A FLAT POINT OF APPROPRIATE WIDTH, AND 4) HIT 'EM IN THE SHOULDERS!!!! SO YOU MAXIMIZE SHOCK ON THE ANIMAL. I HAVE FOUND THAT TKO VALUES, USING APPROPRIATE BULLETS, IS A VERY GOOD INDICATOR OF REVOLVER KILLING POWER, SO PUSHING THE BULLET FASTER IS A PLUS.
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#198317 - 03/26/19 08:32 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Randy M
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 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
 Originally Posted By: Randy M
Well, it?s about that time of year and we haven?t had one of these threads in awhile. Lol.


OOOOHHHH MAN!!!!! You should have seen the large vs magnum primer thread a few years back! It was one of those things that we don't even mention any more! To say the P word just in passing almost got ya exiled after that. It was seriously worse than politics!


Interesting. I certainly don't want to bring up a sore subject, but I'm actually interested in this topic. I've done my own tests with my 460 on large vs. magnum and had unexplainable results. The mags were consistently slower. Head scratcher.
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#198320 - 03/26/19 09:33 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
NYhandgunner
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I've always loaded one of John Linebaugh's pet loads in my 45c, 265 gr. with 24gr H110...but I've been looking to go heavier and I've been looking at the 335 WLN, what load do you use?

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#198321 - 03/26/19 10:02 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: NYhandgunner]
Raptortrapper
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My favorite is the 335gr WLNGC from Cast Performance. Use it with Titegroup for a light load, or with H110 for a full house load. It was very accurate either way.
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#198322 - 03/26/19 10:24 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
karl
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
but if i could find a heavy jacketed bullet that penetrated well but had some sharp edges to open things up just a bit i wouldn't mind a bit.


I can't speak about options for 44 mag or about the A-frame or deep curl (I think the A-frame looks like a great choice with the webbed jacket to ensure bullet integrity but have never used them) But I've had good luck with the Barnes bullets. I'm working up a load for my 454 right now with their 250gn bullet as a woods gun with. They are lighter then your typical lead bullet load, but you can (and should!) run them faster. The down side is bullet cost. I usually have a hunting load and practice load with similar ballistics.
In 45-70 with an Encore pistol they will literally knock big deer off their feet at 100 yards. In bullet testing they retain all their weight, penetrate very well and open up to ~2x their original diameter with sharp copper petals. In heart/lung shots I have seen entrance wounds in the lung tissue that look like a 2" broad head passed through. The exit wound is typically ~2" and in between it looks like blood sausage ready to be stuffed. I hope to try them this fall on an AK moose with a slightly.

I'm sure someone has done a youtube video comparing different 44mag loads in ballistics gel that you could find. While not directly translatable to live animals, it is a reasonable comparison between loads.

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#198323 - 03/26/19 12:02 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Well stated friends. I agree that diameter is constant, especially with a Cutting Edge Bullet (CEB) of solid brass or copper or when using a Punch bullet. And accuracy is of paramount importance to hit the vitals with precision. Velocity is a constantly diminishing component, but rotations per minute imparted to the bullet by that velocity is relatively constant. This apparent "drill-effect" is still a useful component.
An A-frame through the lungs can be good for bleeding-out, or causing the injured lung cavity to fill-up with blood.
I have heard that a moose "hurts all over" when shot, but that it can take a while for the lungs to fill-up with blood. I have no first-hand knowledge though. You Whitworth have tremendous experience with handgun hunting, on the other hand.
Just keep posting the truth of your experiences and I will keep reading and reacting to the postings.


Edited by Jeff460 (03/26/19 01:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198325 - 03/26/19 02:02 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
tradmark
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First you gotta decide what you are willing to pay. The best bullets arent cheap but neither are the game animals you hunt, nor are the guns you shoot em with. That said, for solids the solid copper and punch are the single kost reliable bullets you can shoot. A frames and some barnes are the best expandables you can get. I find the aframes personally the best. Somewhere along the line there was a nonsensical idea purported that velocity increases feom 1300-2000fps dont matter and thats crazy. I also believe if little diameter increases of .023 makes some monumental difference then knocking up the diameter to .7-.8 if ground breaking and have found that to be true especially if a marginal shot is made. I jabe one load that knocks the socks off of 2000+ lb bovines and little animals as well is loads that involve an aframe.

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#198329 - 03/26/19 03:14 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
sixshot
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Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick

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#198330 - 03/26/19 03:45 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick


Well said, Dick.
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#198332 - 03/26/19 07:11 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick




Very true and the key factor. Well said

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#198333 - 03/26/19 07:28 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Pa. Mike
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I have not shot many large animals but I did put four 420 grain hardcast slugs from a .475 Linebaugh into an honest 10' Brown Bear that was wounded by another hunter. Two of the slugs were recovered under the hide on the opposite shoulder I hit. The guide said he could see the bear was "Rocked" by each hit. Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.

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#198334 - 03/26/19 07:48 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Pa. Mike]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Pa. Mike
I have not shot many large animals but I did put four 420 grain hardcast slugs from a .475 Linebaugh into an honest 10' Brown Bear that was wounded by another hunter. Two of the slugs were recovered under the hide on the opposite shoulder I hit. The guide said he could see the bear was "Rocked" by each hit. Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.



Id go with a big no they wont.

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#198347 - 03/27/19 09:13 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
bluecow
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jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !
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#198350 - 03/27/19 10:04 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: bluecow]
Raptortrapper
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Are ya sure it's the moose that's spiteful?
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#198351 - 03/27/19 10:17 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: bluecow]
Randy M
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 Originally Posted By: bluecow
jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !


Hilarious. Reminds me of a caribou I killed in Alaska about 4,000 miles from the bush plane. One pack trip on my back (and my guide) walking on a 4' thick wet sponge the whole way back.
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#198352 - 03/27/19 10:36 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: bluecow]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: bluecow
jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !


And that is precisely why you need to put them down right now. None of that one-shot necessary nonsense. The moose needs to be shot until it crashes to mother earth and unable to get up on its own accord. I remember my guide in Maine telling me to empty my revolver in the moose and make sure it doesn't head into the swamp as that is where it's going if not killed quickly.
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#198353 - 03/27/19 10:38 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Pa. Mike]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Pa. Mike
Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.


Not in my estimation.
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#198358 - 03/27/19 01:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Paul_H
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Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.

My cow moose last fall at ~150 yds dropped at the shot and didn't get up. I made a high lung shot that just nicked the spine. I happened to use a 350 rem mag with a 225gr sierra, but I have little doubt I would have had the same results with a 45-70 hardcast, or a .308 with an expanding bullet, or a 416 rem mag.

If she'd gotten back up or didn't drop at the shot I would have kept shooting until she was down.

Cast bullets can be great, and there can be times when they aren't the best choice. Same with expanding bullets.

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#198360 - 03/27/19 01:25 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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Vance, I shot two bulls. One Shiras and one Alaskan.. The Shiras took a 260gr JFP by Freedom Arms through the heart. Like you said, the recovered bullet could be loaded again. No expansion at all and losing one grain in weight. The Alaskan took a 44 Punch bullet through the lungs, however, as the bull turned and ran I grabbed the guides 375H&H rifle and put one round ( Barnes copper 270gr) up his rear. Its funny cause the punch went through but the recovered Barnes started to expand but bent in half that stopped its penetration. I may still have that bullet. However, both moose ran after taking a hit which may explain why both went down so quickly (pumping all that blood through its big body) while using non-expanding handgun bullets. With my limited experience and talking with other hunters it seems to me that a still moose can absorb a ton of lead but if it runs after a decent hit it will expire much faster..
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#198361 - 03/27/19 01:27 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.


Paul, Living in Alaska sure has benifits
\:D
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#198362 - 03/27/19 02:20 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.



There are exceptions to that rule. I have in recent years seen firsthand bullets that came apart on the onside of animals and never made it to the vitals. So bullet construction in my humble opinion is critical. If one chooses a premium bullet, it's just one less thing you have consider or worry about. JMHO.
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#198363 - 03/27/19 03:36 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Franchise
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At the end of the day, it's good, basic common sense really. Place your shots properly, use a good, quality bullet and use enough gun...
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#198365 - 03/27/19 04:34 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
At the end of the day, it's good, basic commo n sense really. Place your shots properly, use a good, quality bullet and use enough gun...
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#198366 - 03/27/19 05:09 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
tradmark
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All of those i think are givens. Its what denotes quality is where the main discussion happens.

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#198367 - 03/27/19 05:50 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Whitworth
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Yeah, that?s a cop out. We are here to discuss specifics. A good bullet is not a given as many go to field with subpar bullets. The bullet isn?t important, it?s everything.
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#198368 - 03/27/19 06:01 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Franchise
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There's no cop out in my answer. Common sense is to use a good, quality bullet. Be able to control the recoil without downloading to be able to place the good, quality bullet in the kill zone. Good Quality to me is a bonded, heavy for caliber, jacketed bullet (this differs with others). When I've done this, it's never let me down, nor have I had to shoot something 7, 8, 9, or 10 times. A cop out is giving advice without seeing it work or proving it first.....aka the Linebaugh Theory
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#198369 - 03/28/19 12:11 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Vance in AK.
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Thanks for all the input guys.
For now I think I will stick with either 300 or 320gr hardcast. I'm thinking cast performance 300 wfn for now since i have some & they are available locally. I found some 300 Swift Aframes but the crimp grove is way high to the nose. Checking load data it looks like it uses a lot of case space &runs pretty slow so I think I will pass on it. I will order some of the Speer Deepcurls & see how they do for a practice bullet. Maybe put one in as the first bullet if I'm stalking a black bear or for moose followed by hardcast so I can see how the deepcurl performs for my self.
Good shot placement + good bullet = short blood trail.

I just wish you guys all agreed which bullet was best so I could order a thousand & get on with it :-)
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#198375 - 03/28/19 02:40 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sixshot
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For sure you have to have both. Make a perfect shot on a megatron animal, say a large bull elk, a moose or some of the animals that are non dangerous but 500-600 lbs bigger with a cup & core bullet or a brittle cast bullet & bullet placement will break your heart.
It takes both & exits are always welcome when we pull the gun down out of recoil.
To put the emphasis on one without the other is asking for trouble. Take on something really big & dangerous & you just about guaranteed failure.
Vance with the bullets you mention I don't think there's anything up there that can contain one of them unless you are shooting them lengthways, those are mighty fine bullets.
If you need need some heavy weights PM me an address & I'll send you some. They will be powder coated either red or black, your call.

Dick

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#198376 - 03/28/19 04:16 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
sw282
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l was with some of the best handgun shots in the country last

Saturday at this years' first IHMSA Big Bore.. Lots of them also

handgun hunt... The ONLY point agreed on was shot placement. Some

like big holes to completely penetrate the game.. Others want

rapid expansion inside the animal dumping all the bullet energy.

These are men that can take a handgun and topple five steel rams

in a row STANDING @ 200 meters... One guy hunts with a Contender

in 45-70 using 400gr Cast boolits. Another hunts with an XP in

6.5 Grendel.. Just no agreement on bullet type or caliber..

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#198385 - 03/28/19 01:58 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: sw282
l was with some of the best handgun shots in the country last

Saturday at this years' first IHMSA Big Bore.. Lots of them also

handgun hunt... The ONLY point agreed on was shot placement. Just no agreement on bullet type or caliber..


That`s America.....
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#198387 - 03/28/19 02:38 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Paul_H
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.



There are exceptions to that rule. I have in recent years seen firsthand bullets that came apart on the onside of animals and never made it to the vitals. So bullet construction in my humble opinion is critical. If one chooses a premium bullet, it's just one less thing you have consider or worry about. JMHO.


I don't mean to ignore the importance of bullet construction. The point I was trying to make is a well constructed expanding bullet and a well contructed cast or mono metal ogival wadcutter can both be effective killers on game. That said, shot placement is paramount, and it also plays into what bullet one chooses.

I think most of us will agree that on a broadside shot into the heart/lungs with no bones hit, we'd expect an expanding bullet that exits to be a better choice than the flat nosed solid. Conversely on a quartering shot or a shot that encounters heavy bone that would compromise the penetration of the expanding bullet, the solid is a better choice. Fringe shots, maybe the expanding bullet is better if it does more damage to edge of the vitals, or maybe the solid is better as it has the penetration to do more damage.

Perhaps we can also agree that with most handgun rounds there simply isn't enough power to get both deep penetration and a large wound channel as one would with a rifle. So one has to trade off penetration for wound channel. One also has to trade off certain shot penetrations depending on the bullet they choose.

There is no one perfect answer and every hunt and every animal is somewhat unique.


Edited by Paul_H (03/28/19 02:40 PM)

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#198388 - 03/28/19 03:32 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
rougerocco
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I just wish you guys all agreed which bullet was best so I could order a thousand & get on with it :-)
[/quote]

That is why there is 64 colors in a Crayola Crayon Box, not everyone likes the same thing!!
I am with you on the DeepCurl bullets. I plan on shooting some pigs with them and see if I like them.

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#198389 - 03/28/19 04:50 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: rougerocco]
tradmark
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U can. Use the faster heavy hitters. Use and buy a couple thousand swift aframes and fire from any angle. If u wanna run light loads ya need a solid. Ive used aframes as small as 210 gr out of a 41 on bison and killed numerous over a 1000 lb animals with aframes at different angle with 454?s and 460?s. Change that to a 480 and a 44 and im using solids on animals that size which, if placed correctly with kill with aplomb. Monometal is better for the really big stuff. Got good penetration and down a cape buff going away from me at 150 yards with a 460 with an aframe

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#198410 - 03/29/19 03:38 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
sixshot
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A 150 yd shot on a Cape Buffalo going away with a revolver is one dandy shot! Congratulations!!

Dick

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#198411 - 03/29/19 05:32 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Vance in AK.
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Anyone have any experience with HSMs WFN Hard cast 305gr "Bear Load" in the 44mag? Literally half the price of Buffalo Bore. My reloading stuff is torn down right now so I picked up 2 boxes of the HSM for practice & a box of Buffalo Bore +P+ 340s for carry.
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#198415 - 03/29/19 06:29 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
JDK
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Not that load, but my son hunts with an HSM 257 Roberts load and it is absolutely superb. It is the most accurate gun\load combo I've ever seen in person. If that load is any proof of their quality, then I'd have no problem recommending them.
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#198425 - 03/29/19 10:01 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Vance in AK.
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Just wondering about the quality of the cast bullets they use.
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#198435 - 03/30/19 09:03 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Just wondering about the quality of the cast bullets they use.


They?re on the soft side.
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#198437 - 03/30/19 09:39 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
sw282
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l shoot cast almost exclusively


Edited by sw282 (04/04/19 11:54 PM)

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#198441 - 03/30/19 10:45 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282]
Vance in AK.
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Would that be a good thing Whit? Or too soft so they mushroom?
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#198462 - 03/31/19 11:14 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
tradmark
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No. I tried em while guiding for oryx and aoudad on a friends ranch. Had to put a clients down. Kinda smudged thru the shoulder into the shap of a melting hersheys kiss. Didnt do much damage. Didnt finish it quickly either. Client was outta bullets and killed it with the last 3 finally.

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#198464 - 04/01/19 01:10 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Vance in AK.
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Thanks Mark... Sounds like good practice ammo.
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#198466 - 04/01/19 11:50 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Jeff460
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Of all the components that come into play when using a cartridge in a revolver to hunt and kill BIG game, it is the bullet that is most important. Why? Because that is the only vehicle that actually touches the game, and is meant to kill it as humanely as possible.
The integrity of that bullet to do as it was designed to do is of paramount importance. So do proper research before you use a bullet to kill your game. The humane thing is to kill the animal as quickly as possible. Bullet placement and bullet integrity go hand in hand. Keep both at your highest concern and action when hunting.

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#198470 - 04/01/19 09:24 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
sixshot
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Jeff, you nailed it.

Dick

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#198471 - 04/01/19 09:30 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Randy M
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Years ago I was a diehard hard-cast guy out of my Ruger SBH .44. Never recovered a single bullet as they were all pass theoughs. However, even heart/lung hit animals seem to always lead me on really long and sparse blood trails. Eventually, I didn't recover a perfectly hit deer until the next morning and lost the meat. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me and I switched to expanding bullets and upped my speed.

I'm not saying cast is bad. I'm not saying they don't have their place. Just relaying my experience.

I'm now, however, firmly in the heavy/fast/expanding camp unless circumstances don't allow it for some reason.


Edited by Randy M (04/01/19 09:32 PM)
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#198473 - 04/01/19 11:51 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
tradmark
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Me too randy. I took the same path. I remember for me the final straw was shooting an oryx with my buddy, the ranch owner, with a 475 linebaugh with 420 gr wfn?s. All of these oryx except the few i hunted were wounded client animals. Id guide some and the rest were follow ups i was called in to track and finish when the hunt went south after the wounding was done. There was a method to the madness and i was usually on my own but my buddy was present on Many of them. I always had hit em with fast barnes or aframes out of a 454 and they killed em quick. Really quick. This one oryx bull had been hit low in the front leg and they had chased it for two days and the client was stressing hed never find it on their 60k acres. I got there and my buddy told him to sit tight and that i would go recover it. So me and the owner went out. I shot it right at the back of the shoulder with that 475 with the big ole wfn. Tracked on gps we finally caught up amd finished the tough adrenaline crazed critter 7 miles later!!! That was enough. The first shot caught the lungs. Just didnt do much damage. Had i hit it a couple inches forward it woulda died fairly quickly, a heart shot wouldve had it down within 100 yards. Well it was on the move and never could catch up to him still and so a perfect shot was not probable. It was good but not perfect. Never needed that mich perfection with the barnes and aframes running fast.


That said, if one wants a good tough cast bullet that imho is the best ive tested it would be the rimrocks. Garrets are good but available only in loaded ammo and in just a few calibers. Just imho.


Edited by tradmark (04/01/19 11:54 PM)

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#198474 - 04/02/19 02:59 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Vance in AK.
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We have kind of lost the original criteria. The field of hunted animals were black bear, brown bear(costal up to 10'), and moose. Sometimes maybe all possiblein on one day so a "one bullet does it all" load. Gun is 44 mag so heavy AND fast not a real possibility like with 454, 460 etc.
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#198477 - 04/02/19 09:02 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
JDK
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This is tough Vance. Most of us spent decades reading the classic pioneer hand gunner literature extolling the virtues of HC lead. But, new bullets, of which the technology really came into its own around 2005ish maybe, is adding new chapters to the book. But, the info is much more limited and it?s hard not to be a bit leary when the game includes brown bears.
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#198482 - 04/02/19 12:31 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Paul_H
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Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Which get's back to my original comment about shot placement, as it is tied into the bullets you use and the shots you take, or don't take.

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#198483 - 04/02/19 12:36 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Franchise
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Not to shock or surprise anyone, but Swift had handgun a frames in the late 90's and Nosler had the Partitions at the same time and Speer had the bonded gold dot and unicore handgun bullets...Barnes came much later, but I was singing their praises in the late nineties
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#198485 - 04/02/19 01:48 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
JDK
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Some of the designs have been around for a while, but the manufacturers have gotten really good about engineering performance to velocity ranges and, of course, manufacturing technology gets better all the time. I haven?t followed hunting bullets much, because old designs work so well for deer, but with law enforcement/self defense ammo, there was a real turning point in performance with bonded (really bonded!)/barrier blind rounds. That?s why I went from a .45 to a .40 to a 9mm!
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#198486 - 04/02/19 02:03 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.



I would bank on an A-frame successfully punching through heavy bone long before any cast bullet. They're impressive performers. I don't think they present any limitations on shot placement. However, many jacketed expanding bullets are clearly not up to the task of negotiating heavy bone impact.
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#198492 - 04/02/19 02:54 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
sixshot
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While I've admitted many times a cast bullet has its limitations compared to the premium bullets like the A Frames, etc it comes down to what is a BIG bone. I'll always be in the minority camp on this but I'm comfortable with it because I've never had a problem with cast in my type of hunting. I don't hunt the megatron's & I've killed a hell of a lot of big game with cast & I always shake my head when others have had problems.
I've always said I "think" it's because they use hard cast but we can argue that forever & never sort it out. I've always been open about shooting them as soft as possible & still maintaining accuracy & seldom at speeds above 1300 fps.
I've said it before, a hard cast on a hard bone, especially at high speeds is asking for trouble, better used a jacketed here.
I've never changed because I've never hunted anything bigger than elk, moose, bears, lion, plains game, etc. I've maybe recovered 5-6 bullets over a 50 year span & almost all of those have been in the last 5-6 years using some cast HP's on deer.
When you are breaking both front shoulders of large elk with a cast bullet & exiting you don't need to make excuses for your bullets but you do have to concede to better bullets if you hunt the really big, big stuff.... I don't. I can make my cast bullets expand as much or as little as I like by adjusting my alloy & speed & it's never, ever failed, I've never lost an animal or had to have any help & maybe 3 have even got out of sight.
Where I live & hunt it's usually more open so getting out of sight can be a little tougher than for many of you, I do it to suit me, others do it for the same reasons, why would we do it any other way?
Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick

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#198495 - 04/02/19 02:59 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot

Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick
even if its a two step bullet..
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#198498 - 04/02/19 03:26 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
While I've admitted many times a cast bullet has its limitations compared to the premium bullets like the A Frames, etc it comes down to what is a BIG bone. I'll always be in the minority camp on this but I'm comfortable with it because I've never had a problem with cast in my type of hunting. I don't hunt the megatron's & I've killed a hell of a lot of big game with cast & I always shake my head when others have had problems.
I've always said I "think" it's because they use hard cast but we can argue that forever & never sort it out. I've always been open about shooting them as soft as possible & still maintaining accuracy & seldom at speeds above 1300 fps.
I've said it before, a hard cast on a hard bone, especially at high speeds is asking for trouble, better used a jacketed here.
I've never changed because I've never hunted anything bigger than elk, moose, bears, lion, plains game, etc. I've maybe recovered 5-6 bullets over a 50 year span & almost all of those have been in the last 5-6 years using some cast HP's on deer.
When you are breaking both front shoulders of large elk with a cast bullet & exiting you don't need to make excuses for your bullets but you do have to concede to better bullets if you hunt the really big, big stuff.... I don't. I can make my cast bullets expand as much or as little as I like by adjusting my alloy & speed & it's never, ever failed, I've never lost an animal or had to have any help & maybe 3 have even got out of sight.
Where I live & hunt it's usually more open so getting out of sight can be a little tougher than for many of you, I do it to suit me, others do it for the same reasons, why would we do it any other way?
Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick


You're right, Dick. I really hadn't questioned the effectiveness of cast bullets that I have used on quite a few heads of game over many years. I used to always joke about pictures of cast bullets I've used, but the trouble is that I had never recovered one until the Bovine Bash happened. Granted, it's on the extreme end of testing, but that really is the purpose. I lived in Florida where I hunted hogs regularly and also used to make forays down to North Carolina at least a half-dozen times a year to kill hogs and more often than not I used cast bullets and these were free-ranging so nothing was keeping mistakes I made on shot placement from running away to never be recovered. Never an issue.

I resisted the A-frame for years, but Mark kept sticking them in front of my nose having been recovered from all manner of animal from thin-skinned to big and heavy boned with all of the same results seemingly no matter what the bullets came in contact with. It's almost ridiculous, and unrealistic, but they really seem to have nailed the design on these.

Most every failure I have experienced with cast bullets has resulted in a dead animal so one could argue semantics, but it has always been the really big animals where my concern has been centered. I killed a large cow moose in Maine years ago with cast bullets and they did their job without issue and frankly I will continue to use them in a certain capacity.

The Swift A-frame is clearly an anomaly and an exception to the rule in my experience!
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#198504 - 04/02/19 04:22 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Which get's back to my original comment about shot placement, as it is tied into the bullets you use and the shots you take, or don't take.



If you shoot the biguns no need to limit shots. Either myself or a hi ting bud has put down numerous over 1000lb animals on all manner of poorly angle shots thru heavy bones. Several put down in 20 yards.

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#198521 - 04/03/19 11:32 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Ernie
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I have enjoyed this thread.
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#198529 - 04/03/19 11:34 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Ernie]
Raptortrapper
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I'm filling up on popcorn.
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#198531 - 04/04/19 06:35 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Ernie]
racksmasher1
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
I have enjoyed this thread.
X2

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#198532 - 04/04/19 07:56 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: racksmasher1]
Mark Hampton
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No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.

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#198538 - 04/04/19 10:15 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton]
45MAN
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


MARK: CIGARS, NOW WE ARE TALKING!

THIS, AND SIMILAR BULLET PERFORMANCE THREADS INVOLVING REVOLVERS, ARE INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINING.
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#198539 - 04/04/19 11:50 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
JDK
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Yea, I'm afraid we may not have helped Vance much, but I've learned from this thread! It's given me something to think about and challenged long held, but maybe no longer relevant, beliefs.
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John

But for the grace of God, there, I go.

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#198540 - 04/04/19 12:16 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


Count me in!
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#198541 - 04/04/19 12:27 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Franchise
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John, hopefully this thread has opened a few closed minded eyes. Hard Cast bullets NEVER did what some claimed. Those writers either could not handle recoil, or we too lazy to actually test heavy, bonded big bore pistol bullets..it was in today's words Fake News
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#198542 - 04/04/19 12:29 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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I'm referring to the last twenty years by the way
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#198544 - 04/04/19 01:10 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
John, hopefully this thread has opened a few closed minded eyes. Hard Cast bullets NEVER did what some claimed. Those writers either could not handle recoil, or we too lazy to actually test heavy, bonded big bore pistol bullets..it was in today's words Fake News


I'll put my old .50 Alaskan revolver loaded with 525 grain hardcast bullets up to any single-shot in a head-to-head (head busting?), hang on for dear life recoil contest! At less than 4-lbs that SOB is like riding a bull in a rodeo with nothing to hang onto. Hahahahaha


Time for some comedy relief...
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#198545 - 04/04/19 01:11 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
sixshot
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Franchise, what do you mean when you say hard cast bullets never did what some people claim? Also, am I "lazy" if I don't seat a bonded bullet instead of a cast bullet, they seat the same way.

Dick

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#198546 - 04/04/19 01:32 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Franchise
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I knew that what I wrote sounded harsh, but the writers of the time claimed that a heavy for caliber bullet at 900 fps to 1100 fps was gods gift to penetration and tissue damage and that they were far superior to any expanding bullet
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#198547 - 04/04/19 01:34 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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I l can't count how many times that I would read that the only way to reach the vitals of a big game animal with a handgun was with a HC bulle....which is just crazy
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#198548 - 04/04/19 01:37 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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The recoil comment was in relation to 900 fps - 1100 fps is much easier to control than the say load at 1,800 fps....hence all the downloading
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#198549 - 04/04/19 01:40 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
tradmark
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U are right. I heard the same for years. I think they can work and run what ya want, but i have used and continue to use both extensively and with my big boomers i know what i feel is most effective.

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#198550 - 04/04/19 01:49 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The recoil comment was in relation to 900 fps - 1100 fps is much easier to control than the say load at 1,800 fps....hence all the downloading


Just kidding...
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#198551 - 04/04/19 01:51 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL
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#198552 - 04/04/19 01:52 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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The 50 Alaskan exceeds my recoil tolerance for sure...hahaha
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#198553 - 04/04/19 01:55 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Vance in AK.
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You guys may not of helped me much, but it's been a great "welcome home" to the forum party! Sorry to have caused so much trouble! Actually it's been well worth it. Great discussion.
I know one thing. My choice of cartridges is marginal. Completely adequate for black bear & moose but throwing brown bear in with the same bullet really complicates it.
The jacketed bullets can't be driven as fast as the cast at the same pressure limits & as they get slower I worry that they won't perform at all & will simply become a solid with a nose profile that leads to less damage than a comparable weight wfn cast and since impact velocity will be less the penetration will be less...
If I knew that swift A Frames would open AND penetrate at my impact velocities I would gladly buy them at twice the retail price...
The second (sad) thing I am pretty sure of is I will never get to kill enough animals to really draw my own conclusions! So keep yours coming!!!!!!!
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
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#198554 - 04/04/19 01:57 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL


With the same cast bullet, they tend to go neck and neck as far as depth of penetration. However, the one that is traveling 500 fps faster is definitely doing more damage. But these speeds exceed the cast bullet's ultimate capability, especially if they encounter heavy bone. Hence, moderate velocity is better with cast bullets.
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#198555 - 04/04/19 01:58 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan exceeds my recoil tolerance for sure...hahaha


It exceeds mine too!
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#198556 - 04/04/19 02:00 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
eggfooyoung5000
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What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame

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#198557 - 04/04/19 02:01 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL


Thats part of the mythology. Penetration doesnt equal effectiveness. Ill always take more damage over more penetration once enough penetratation has been reached. Same thing with the hardcast revolver bullets penetrated as well as a 470 nitro etc. so they penetrate the same but i can tell you which made more damage. That is something that ive not seen discussed around that round table.

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#198558 - 04/04/19 02:04 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: eggfooyoung5000
What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame



It doesnt in any way. The aframe expands reliably at lower velocity levels and holds together perfectly at levels above what a revolver can throw. Worst case scenario the aframe turns into a hard jacketed shank.

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#198559 - 04/04/19 02:05 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: eggfooyoung5000
What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame


In no way, shape or form.
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#198560 - 04/04/19 03:19 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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Any bullet that penetrates the central nervous system with sufficient force to damage it both structurally, as well as fatally, is a good bullet. And any bullet that can penetrate cross-ways from one side to the other of a large animal, laying waste to the lungs and rapidly depressurizing the lung cavity while exiting, is a good bullet.
Hard-cast or an A-Frame, it is the result that counts. So go forth and make results happen that we can all agree upon. The animal you hunt deserves a humane and relatively quick demise.

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#198564 - 04/04/19 06:25 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
eggfooyoung5000
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Is it because XTP bullets break apart/jacket separation when it hits bone? I thought they usually have moderate expansion which allows for better penetration

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#198565 - 04/04/19 07:33 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000]
Vance in AK.
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Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...
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Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
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#198567 - 04/04/19 08:27 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
sixshot
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Cast bullets were, and always have been, built to do 2 things, penetrate & penetrate!! How & if they damage depends on nose profile. Expansion is usually zero or minimal but that is easy to change if you know how to do it, some do & some don't care, they just want penetration.
It's next to impossible to make them expand like a jacketed bullet & anyone that claims they can is wrong. If you shoot pure lead you might but that's not a cast bullet really.
Running cast bullets at 900-1100 fps & getting massive penetration is possible but it depends on nose profile & alloy & also what it comes in contact with, there's no free lunch.
It's a given that cast bullets are built to penetrate & jacketed bullets are built to expand, both can cross over to some extent but there's always a trade off so pick your poison.
Arguing what is best is senseless, use what you have confidence in, if you've had success with something for 30-40-50 years you probably have some pretty strong opinions on what works & how to get there, if your loads are bordering on failure, maybe listen to someone who's got a better hammer.
Our choices of guns, bullets, powders, scopes, rangefinders, etc has never been better, use what suits you & help out the new guys that ask for it.
If someone tells you several million Bison were killed with pure lead in a round ball at fairly pedestrian velocities..... buy him a CIGAR!

Dick

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#198570 - 04/04/19 09:38 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton]
Randy M
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...
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#198572 - 04/04/19 09:53 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
racksmasher1
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Damn good thread, Dick hit it on the nail, use what you have confidence in on the game you are hunting, most guys on this site will never kill a animal over 300 pounds, the bullet type you use, in my opinion on game that size really doesn?t matter, when the size of the animal goes up, now we have a different game, XTP?s, Swifts, and cast bullets all have their place,on the right size animals, bullet technology is better now than ever,thanks for all the good information, I think folks benefited from this thread, and I did have a cigar after supper!

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#198575 - 04/04/19 10:34 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Randy M
 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...


Randy, I am 100% with you!
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#198576 - 04/04/19 10:35 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Cast bullets were, and always have been, built to do 2 things, penetrate & penetrate!! How & if they damage depends on nose profile. Expansion is usually zero or minimal but that is easy to change if you know how to do it, some do & some don't care, they just want penetration.
It's next to impossible to make them expand like a jacketed bullet & anyone that claims they can is wrong. If you shoot pure lead you might but that's not a cast bullet really.
Running cast bullets at 900-1100 fps & getting massive penetration is possible but it depends on nose profile & alloy & also what it comes in contact with, there's no free lunch.
It's a given that cast bullets are built to penetrate & jacketed bullets are built to expand, both can cross over to some extent but there's always a trade off so pick your poison.
Arguing what is best is senseless, use what you have confidence in, if you've had success with something for 30-40-50 years you probably have some pretty strong opinions on what works & how to get there, if your loads are bordering on failure, maybe listen to someone who's got a better hammer.
Our choices of guns, bullets, powders, scopes, rangefinders, etc has never been better, use what suits you & help out the new guys that ask for it.
If someone tells you several million Bison were killed with pure lead in a round ball at fairly pedestrian velocities..... buy him a CIGAR!

Dick




Amen brother!
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#198577 - 04/04/19 11:51 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
sw282
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How good were Normas'44cal 240gr JSP TriClad bullets penetration?

l found a box the other day in my stash...

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#198579 - 04/05/19 01:28 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282]
Raptortrapper
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Gonna go grab my pipe now. Been a good thread for sure.
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#198580 - 04/05/19 01:28 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282]
Chance Weldon Administrator
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I thought I was about to have to give a few warnings when I logged in and saw all the replies this thread had garnered. Turns out it's not necessary.

Carry on, gentlemen, carry on.
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#198584 - 04/05/19 06:34 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Chance Weldon]
Franchise
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It's definitely been a great thread, but I honestly think that they all are. Hopefully, people will be curious enough to test and try these bullets in question out for themselves, not the "I read it, it must be true" philosophy. Bullets to me are like many other things in life....advancements are GREAT....I know if something has worked for 200 years, well, oh no, let's not change it or make it better.....Outhouses work, but thank god for indoor plumbing.....cross cut saws cut down trees, but not like a chain saw, and last but not least, vaccines save lives, but some people are still resistant.....have a wonderful day
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#198589 - 04/05/19 10:08 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
Seminole Wind
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...


Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so my limited experience with 280 gr Aframes in 44 Mag is:

280 gr Aframe
21.5 gr H110 (start lower)
CCI 350
Starline virgin brass
1.590 oal
1370 fps ave
10" SBH

I really like 240 gr Aframe better for deer than 280 gr. They clock 1470 fps out of the 10" SBH. I don't hunt bear, moose, etc, so the lighter bullet suits my needs better. I haven't tried 300 gr Aframes. Hope this helps.

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#198600 - 04/05/19 12:23 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M]
Paul_H
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 Originally Posted By: Randy M
 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...


That or a decent bourbon, can't go wrong.

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#198605 - 04/05/19 02:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Seminole Wind]
Vance in AK.
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 Originally Posted By: Seminole Wind
 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...


Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so my limited experience with 280 gr Aframes in 44 Mag is:

280 gr Aframe
21.5 gr H110 (start lower)
CCI 350
Starline virgin brass
1.590 oal
1370 fps ave
10" SBH

I really like 240 gr Aframe better for deer than 280 gr. They clock 1470 fps out of the 10" SBH. I don't hunt bear, moose, etc, so the lighter bullet suits my needs better. I haven't tried 300 gr Aframes. Hope this helps.


Thank you sir! That does help.
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#198613 - 04/05/19 07:57 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Seminole Wind]
45MAN
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Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so

YEP
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#198615 - 04/05/19 09:50 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
BBwheelgunner
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my this is an active topic!
I saw the title and thought "uh oh, someone resurrected an old battle" but to my pleasure it's new and seems to be civil!
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#198618 - 04/05/19 11:31 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
BBwheelgunner
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Vance,
I own the Swift reloading manual if you are interested in any more data than what's above.

Swift makes A-Frames for lever guns, If I were you I think I would be scoping them out for my guide gun also


Edited by BBwheelgunner (04/05/19 11:33 PM)
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#198619 - 04/06/19 01:29 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
Vance in AK.
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BBwheelgunner, if i go back to shooting it i probably will.

I would love to have the full data for 280s and 300s on 44mag. If you could take a pic and text it to me at nine 07 398 792 one that would be awesome.
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#198620 - 04/06/19 01:41 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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On Swift`s web site there is a 2 minute video showing their bullet board and if you enlarge the video and pause it when they are panning the bottom row you will see their 400gr.
.475 JFP A-frame (three bullets to the left of the sectioned 45) they never put into production. I think it was to be made for a lever action rifle.... I had that bullet on backorder from,I believe, Midway for a few months when they informed me it was not in production... Can you imagine?? A 400 grain A-frame for you 475 Linebaugh....
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#198638 - 04/07/19 12:06 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
BBwheelgunner
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man, I would think a 400gr Swift A-Frame would be an absolute hammer in the 475.

I am thankful that their .452 line is robust with the 265, 300, and 325 as that is what I shoot currently. pretty much covers all the bases.

It would be nice if they would offer a 400 in the 475 and at least that in a .500
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#198642 - 04/07/19 01:18 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
JDK
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I?m surprised they don?t have a .358 in their levergun lineup.
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#198648 - 04/07/19 04:25 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Franchise
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Don't be too surprised guys. We are a small group. Unfortunately, a lot of guys that buy big bore revolvers never truly hunt with them. They become table top conversation pieces...Recoil is real, and very few folks can accurately handle it. Look at what is selling now....the big thing.....the super powerful 10mm hahahahahahaha.......and some folks really think it's a gun for the big five.....complete stupidity
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#198652 - 04/07/19 07:13 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Raptortrapper
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Sorry, this post is a bit of topic, but I have, and CC, a 6" Springfield TRP in 10mm. Absolutely love it, and plan on hunting with it. But there is NO WAY, on THIS GREEN EARTH, that I would chase the big 5 with it.

Under a jacket, in a holster from Milt Sparks, it can't be seen. I had an ill-fitting holster for it while the Milt Sparks was being made last summer while I was at Wyshot, and I should have just done without and not carried it for those few weeks. That Fobus holster I used temporarily was a horrible fit for it. But the Milt Sparks is perfect in every way. (Horse hide trimmed in Shark.)

The 10mm will be good medicine for bears and lions around here, and I'm sure it serves as a GREAT deterrent to bad guys when seen in open carry also. But Big 5-- no way.



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#198653 - 04/07/19 07:19 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Brenden
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I still wish Speer hadn't dropped the 400 grain slug. As of now, I'm shooting a 412 and 420 cast slug out of my 475 Linebaugh, but may try some of the fury bullets if nothing else.

Not a lot in the way of .475 diameter slugs. Not much over 325 grains anyway. Should have bought a 500 jrh...

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#198657 - 04/07/19 08:37 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Brenden]
Franchise
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I wish Barnes would come out with a 325 to 350 gr XPB in .475
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#198666 - 04/07/19 10:36 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
BBwheelgunner
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I wish Barnes would come out with a 325 to 350 gr XPB in .475


Yeah I don't have a 475, but an XPB in that range would be money too
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#198676 - 04/08/19 10:48 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner]
Buck_358
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Here?s a sampling of my test results with .475 caliber bullets.
One may want to consider Hawk?s 475 caliber lineup, Hawk will also work with you on custom orders. That said, the fact that Doc Rodgers has taken Lion and Cape Buffalo with the Barnes 275 XPB was a deciding factor in my 475-bullet choice.
My velocities were recorded by lab radar.
I score the wet newsprint results every 3 inches until the bullet is found. However, getting my excel matrix to display correctly here is a bit of a challenge. For ease of reading, I?ve limited this data to total penetration, bullet diameter and weight retention.

Wet Newsprint Test ? BFR 7 ?? .475 Linebaugh - Medium Distance 50 Yards
Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 28.5 CCI 350 1667
11.5? Stopped
Bullet Dia 1.048" Wt. Retention 274 / 99%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 29.5 CCI 350 1755
15? Stopped
Bullet Dia 1.011" Wt. Retention 274 .3/ 99.7%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hawk 300 x .025 HP A#9 29 CCI 350 1567
12? Stopped
Bullet Dia .781" Wt. Retention 267.4 / 89.1%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hornady 325 XTP A#9 27 CCI 350 1549
17? Stopped
Bullet Dia .749" Wt. Retention 301.2 / 92.6%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hawk 350 x .025 HP A#9 26 CCI 350 1459
13? Stopped
Bullet Dia .880" Wt. Retention 306.0 / 87.4%
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#198679 - 04/08/19 11:51 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Buck_358]
Franchise
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Damon, you are a wealth of knowledge. You really need to come hunt with us sometime. You have some impressive Encore barrels
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#198681 - 04/08/19 12:19 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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Dennis at Fury Custom Bullets can also make you about any type of bullet that you can imagine
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#198686 - 04/08/19 01:01 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Buck_358]
jamesfromjersey Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Buck_358
Here?s a sampling of my test results with .475 caliber bullets.
One may want to consider Hawk?s 475 caliber lineup, Hawk will also work with you on custom orders. That said, the fact that Doc Rodgers has taken Lion and Cape Buffalo with the Barnes 275 XPB was a deciding factor in my 475-bullet choice.
My velocities were recorded by lab radar.
I score the wet newsprint results every 3 inches until the bullet is found. However, getting my excel matrix to display correctly here is a bit of a challenge. For ease of reading, I?ve limited this data to total penetration, bullet diameter and weight retention.

Wet Newsprint Test ? BFR 7 ?? .475 Linebaugh - Medium Distance 50 Yards
Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 28.5 CCI 350 1667
11.5? Stopped
Bullet Dia 1.048" Wt. Retention 274 / 99%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 29.5 CCI 350 1755
15? Stopped
Bullet Dia 1.011" Wt. Retention 274 .3/ 99.7%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hawk 300 x .025 HP A#9 29 CCI 350 1567
12? Stopped
Bullet Dia .781" Wt. Retention 267.4 / 89.1%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hornady 325 XTP A#9 27 CCI 350 1549
17? Stopped
Bullet Dia .749" Wt. Retention 301.2 / 92.6%

Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity
Hawk 350 x .025 HP A#9 26 CCI 350 1459
13? Stopped
Bullet Dia .880" Wt. Retention 306.0 / 87.4%



Buck, All the bullets expanded well with the XTP giving deepest penetration. I wonder how the Speer 325 would have performed?? thanks for your information
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#198754 - 04/09/19 11:56 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: jamesfromjersey]
Paul_H
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19 gr of H-110 will push a 460 gr WFN 1100 fps from a 7 1/2" SRH 480. In the early 2000's I sent a box of those bullets to a buddy to see how they worked in his 480, and he took them to the Linebaugh seminar. In the wet newsprint test he got 38" of penetration. In the bone and newsprint test he got 2+" of bone and 10" of newsprint.



Water quenched wheelweight alloy.

I'd be curious to see how my 400 gr XLFN's loaded to 1200 fps would fare.

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#198756 - 04/09/19 12:14 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Jeff460
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Impressive. Momentum is greater when combined with a heavy bullet for caliber and adequate velocity. Penetration through heavy bone and tight muscle tissue will be increased.

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#198784 - 04/09/19 05:12 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Buck_358
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David - Thank you... I will have to plan to join sometime, considered the hunt you have for this month but it's the same time as our opener of spring Turkey where I already had plans.

James - Sorry I don't have the Speer's on hand or I would have given them a test with the others.

D..
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#198786 - 04/09/19 05:38 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Buck_358]
Paul_H
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I'm thinking momentum is more important for penetration than sd. Which is why IMHO contributes to why the larger calibers are better killers.

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#198797 - 04/09/19 09:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Franchise
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Damon, maybe next year...I'd love to shoot your 50 B&M Alaskan 😉😜 You'd have a blast buddy....the campfire stories are the best....very few big bore single shot guys anymore...I thought my 416 Barnes was a powerhouse, your 416 Rem Mag Encore is in a whole other class....
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#198815 - 04/10/19 09:41 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H]
Jeff460
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I agree. Sectional density is a good comparison between rifle caliber bullets of a smaller caliber. Comparing a .308 caliber bullet to a .284 caliber bullet, for instance. The long parallel sides of rifle bullets aid stable penetration, all other variables being equal.
But large caliber handgun and rifle bullets that have high weight, the sectional density is not as important. Momentum from their greater weight will increase penetration. A 44 caliber 300 grain XTP bullet penetrated deeper than a 500 S&W 300 grain jacketed bullet in ballistic gel on Kentucky Ballistics. The 500 S&W explosively expanded and dumped its energy but the 44 magnum 300 grain XTP did not expand and penetrated much deeper than the expanded but same weight 500 caliber bullet.
For what it is worth, too high of an impact velocity can retard penetration. A sweet spot appears to be between 1350 to 1800 feet per second. That is why BIG BORE revolvers penetrate so well I guess. They parallel that velocity range with larger caliber and heavy bullets.
A limit in weight seems to be also in play. The bullet must stabilize after leaving the barrel and some bullets can be too long or the twist rate of the barrel can affect stabilization to a great degree. The marriage of all the variables seem to be the key that we are all pursuing as we work up are loads and test our bullets.

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#198819 - 04/10/19 10:37 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.
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#198822 - 04/10/19 11:49 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Franchise
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I completely agree Whitworth!!!
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#198824 - 04/10/19 12:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation, so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM (Rotations Per Minute) to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result.
In lighter-framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited, so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too, relatively speaking. If a heavy hard-cast/penetration bullet can go completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside with moderate velocity, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy penetrating bullet of some maker. Whitaker is correct in the make and model name of the bullet, as he posted further down in response to my treatise.
So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration.
I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. But I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back. The test ran closer to 2100 fps as an extreme limit as rifles were also being tested.
This is just my opinion, so please add it to the discussion.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:23 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198825 - 04/10/19 12:15 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
cmnash
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.



 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I completely agree Whitworth!!!


OH SNAP!

Whitworth and Franchise agree about something?

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#198826 - 04/10/19 12:21 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: cmnash]
45MAN
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IN REVOLVERS, BASICALLY I BELIEVE THE SWEET SPOT FOR MOST CAST BULLETS IS UNDER 1,300fps, THE SWEET SPOT FOR PREMIUM FMJ's OR MONOLITHICS OR AFRAMES IS AS FAST AS YOU CAN SHOOT THEM ACCURATELY, AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.
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#198827 - 04/10/19 12:40 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result.
In lighter framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too. If a heavy hard-cast bullet can penetrate completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy hard-cast bullet.
So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration.
I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back.
Just my opinion so add it to the discussion.


You don't want to run a hardcast bullet to 1,800 fps and frankly, I wouldn't run them over 1,400. It will overtax the material.

Brian Pearce was using CorBon Penetrators when he inadvertently killed the two Cape buffalo.
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#198828 - 04/10/19 12:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.


Haha! The sweet spot is on the shelf!
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#198829 - 04/10/19 12:48 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: cmnash]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: cmnash
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.



 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I completely agree Whitworth!!!


OH SNAP!

Whitworth and Franchise agree about something?


Hahaha! We actually agree on a lot more than most think! We're just trying to keep y'all on your toes!
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Bovine Bullet Test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

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#198830 - 04/10/19 12:55 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Jeff460
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At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198831 - 04/10/19 01:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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I stand corrected Whitaker. Bullet integrity is a given with Corbon Penetrator bullets. The velocity though was more than adequate, and that falls within the range I posted earlier. Velocity is not king!!! The bullet diameter, its construction/integrity and where it is placed reigns supreme. Velocity, up to a point, is a friend and companion, but it will constantly diminish as the bullet exits the barrel.
Rotations per minute imparted by the rifling is a constant though, so the drilling effect of higher velocity must be accompanied by bullets of unquestionable integrity to be utilized effectively. What say you sir?


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198833 - 04/10/19 01:23 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN]
Randy M
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 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.


About 11 fps as measured by the speed at which they fell out of my hands and into the trash can.
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#198834 - 04/10/19 01:31 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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I noted what you have stated and given you status for doing so in my earlier post. So you say 1400 fps is your ceiling with a hard-cast bullet. I saw on a post that you can cast bullets out of zinc and that creates a HARD cast bullet. What would that make you think of?
I researched it but zinc, while very hard, is just 63% the weight of an equal amount of lead. And less weight means less momentum. That means no matter its attribute of no deformation at high velocities, I am not interested. Not to mention that zinc cannot be used in any other furnace crucible because it is not compatible with lead in the least. A .001 smaller zinc bullet than the size of the bore would sure clean the lead out of a gun barrel. Just shoot one or two shots out of your barrel and POOF the lead is all gone.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/10/19 09:38 PM)

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#198835 - 04/10/19 01:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Franchise
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The best way to honestly see what bullet does what, is to test them yourselves...I learned a lot over the years shooting different animals of different sizes, using different bullets..first hand experience is the best teacher
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#198837 - 04/10/19 02:33 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
JDK
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Poor Hornady XTPs
To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer!
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#198838 - 04/10/19 03:04 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: JDK
Poor Hornady XTPs
To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer!


But not on anything else! LOL!
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#198839 - 04/10/19 03:54 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
45MAN
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I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE PROBLEMS WITH XTP's ARE A WORKMANSHIP ISSUE, RATHER I BELIEVE IT IS AN ISSUE WITH ANY REVOLVER BULLET THAT RELIES ON POST IMPACT DEFORMITY FOR ITS PERFORMANCE, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALL RANGE OF AVAILABLE VELOCITIES. PRESENTLY THERE ARE FEW EXPANDING REVOLVER BULLETS THAT CAN PERFORM WELL AND PREDICTABLY OVER A BROAD VELOCITY SPAN, THE AFRAMES BEING ONE OF THE FEW. I HAVE ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WOULD LIKE KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IMPACT BEFORE I SHOOT IT, BUT THE AFRAMES DO PROVIDE AN ALTERNATIVE TO ABSOLUTE BULLET INTEGRITY BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY PREDICTABLE IN THEIR POST IMPACT DEFORMITY. I HAVE KILLED A LOT OF ANIMALS WITH XTP's BUT NOW JUST CONSIDER THEM TO BE PRACTICE BULLETS. FOR USE ON GAME, I AM WILLING TO PAY A LITTLE MORE PER BULLET AS I WANT TO ELIMINATE AS MANY VARIABLES IN BULLET PERFORMANCE AS POSSIBLE.
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#198846 - 04/10/19 09:54 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement.



Faster the bullet if it maintains its integrity = more penetration but also more damage. I can say with absolute certainty that running any monolithic solid or barnes/afeame at over 2000fps does remarkeably more damage and penetrates deeper than the same bullet fired out of a 454. Also out penetrates anything from the linebaugh creations as well. More damage too. This equals much better performance on game. I can provide the pictures of the game ive shot to make that statement as well. And lots of em.

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#198849 - 04/10/19 10:08 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark]
Jeff460
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Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress.
Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address.

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#198853 - 04/11/19 08:33 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff460
Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress.
Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address.


The OP was asking what we collectively think he should use, so obviously the discussion is covering all types of bullets. You mentioned a 1,300 to 1,800 fps window for cast bullets in a previous post, but that velocity ceiling is too high for the material, but not too high for quality expanding bullets or monolithic bullets.

Have you tested any of these velocity windows on game? I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how well A-frames (for example) kill when pushed hard and placed well. You have an X-frame which is a good candidate for higher velocities and great for testing/experimentation.

There is nothing less humane than a slow death, and I personally always strive for a quick finish and that is why I like to push a little harder.
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#198854 - 04/11/19 09:13 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
Jeff460
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I mentioned the study was using rifles and handguns later and including 458 magnum rifles. I referenced the study parameters as I faintly remembered. I now believe it was a high of 2100 fps as the upper window of when penetration would resume to take off and be added. The window was from around 1300 to 1400 fps with any bullet, not just hard cast, to the rifle velocities of 2100 fps that diminished penetration gains were being seen. It was a phenom I observed empirically. I want short range hunting like shotguns and revolvers. I am not for all out X-frame velocities. I shoot 3 inch 12 gauge not 3 1/2. I shoot open sight revolvers and keep shots inside 50 yards as a rule. So the platform is a 500 S&W shooting 500 JRH and a 460 S&W using 454 Casull. The all-out can be done but I am not going all-out because I choose not to, right now.


Edited by Jeff460 (04/11/19 09:15 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification change

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#198870 - 04/11/19 12:41 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Franchise
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Have you yourself Jeff ever put any of these experimental results to a test on game, with a handgun? Just curious...we all have read such data, but it is a little different when you, yourself put the "lab results" to work on live game with a handgun...I'm just curious
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#198872 - 04/11/19 12:53 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Jeff460
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I work 71 hours per week and every weekend. I have done penetration tests but no kills of anything approaching 1000 pounds or more. But preparation is half the fun. So are you inviting me to a hunt? I am up for it. If I am not at work...

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#198873 - 04/11/19 12:59 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460]
Franchise
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I think that you'd definitely learn a lot by doing it yourself on game...
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#198874 - 04/11/19 01:21 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Franchise
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I killed my fair share of water jugs and phone books, but it IS different on flesh and blood...PM me if you are honestly interested in going to the Forum Hunt, everyone is welcome
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#198880 - 04/11/19 03:11 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
sixshot
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Hmmm, I've been gone a couple of days over to Boise & you guys have covered some ground without me! I did see 6 (six) dead badgers on the road driving over with 2 of my sons' to pick up a drift boat. Hate to see that, they deserve to be shot by me!
Anyway, a few observations, one is that a cast bullet at 1,800 fps isn't going to perform very well if it hits anything solid, they just won't hold up. Now if it's soft tissue you're probably ok but heavy bone will destroy that bullet.
I'm the one that mentioned Zinc, they will work & if the bullet is lighter go to a heavier mould if you like, that's pretty easy. The premium bullets are lighter for caliber many times. Anyway that was one of my secrets to attacking heavy bone & a 380-390 gr Zinc bullet out of a 480 would have surprised a few people. Even a lighter Zinc bullet from a 44 would surprise you.
On to the XTP's, on another forum just recently a guide or outfitter or perhaps a PH, can't remember stated that the XTP's were the perfect bullet for bears in the 44 magnum!! I'm going to say right now, I don't shoot jacketed bullets so I have no dog in this fight but I do know that many of you have much experience with all of the jacketed bullets out there & the XTP's get mixed reviews once the animals get bigger than deer.
Don't know why he would say that but he did. I have a lot of experience with bears & a 200 lb bear is much different than a 200 lb deer, the reason is a bear is more dense, short legs, more compact, etc. Plus a bear can be very dangerous.
Hit both correctly & they are dead, hit a bear wrong & things can get interesting, they are blink quick & if a fight breaks out you had better be ready. Use good bullets always.
These are good discussions, civil & common sense comments & I think we all learn something. Handgun hunting has came a long way in the last couple of decades & bullets has been perhaps the #1 discussion most times, good stuff.

Dick

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#198888 - 04/11/19 07:47 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot]
Franchise
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Great Thread, Great Discussion, and a lot of thought provoking material. Hopefully this thread will encourage handgun hunters to try something new on their next hunt...remember you can't hunt from the couch and first hand experience is the only real way to see what works
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#198896 - 04/12/19 06:29 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
racksmasher1
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Great Thread, Great Discussion, and a lot of thought provoking material. Hopefully this thread will encourage handgun hunters to try something new on their next hunt...remember you can't hunt from the couch and first hand experience is the only real way to see what works
.....All this talk about A Frames, I?m going to order some today to try them out.

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#198897 - 04/12/19 10:13 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise]
Whitworth
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Great Thread, Great Discussion, and a lot of thought provoking material. Hopefully this thread will encourage handgun hunters to try something new on their next hunt...remember you can't hunt from the couch and first hand experience is the only real way to see what works


Amen to that!
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#198911 - 04/12/19 07:24 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth]
tradmark
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Great Thread, Great Discussion, and a lot of thought provoking material. Hopefully this thread will encourage handgun hunters to try something new on their next hunt...remember you can't hunt from the couch and first hand experience is the only real way to see what works


Amen to that!



Yup

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#198932 - 04/13/19 06:00 PM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Raptortrapper]
Vance in AK.
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166 posts! Whod a thunk it?
I appreciate all the input. Some was a ways off track but it was all good!
I have some 270 speers, some 280 swifts, and my good old heavy hardcast to experiment with. If anything notable happens with any of them i will let you know!
Now i just need to go play!
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#198945 - 04/14/19 12:18 AM Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.]
tradmark
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Have fun and keep us posted!

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