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#196605 - 12/14/18 10:16 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: linebaugh]
MS Hitman
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Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 278
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Unless one greatly overmatches a bullet to the game intended, there will be a mix between penetration and expansion. Some, not all, tend to overdrive the XTP bullets and tip the favor to expansion. Slowing these bullets down a bit will increase penetration, the same holds true for Ballistic Tip bullets. I have gotten length wise penetration in deer using my .309 JDJ with 150s slowed down to 2,350 fps.

Bullets measuring 0.429" and up are preexpamded prior to pulling the trigger, so I don't worry about trying to drive them so hard. They tend to act more like a flat point cast bullet and make the trip through the shoulders when needed.

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#196612 - 12/14/18 08:10 PM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: MS Hitman]
Brenden
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Registered: 10/21/12
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Deer aren't hard to kill at all, but their will to live is strong. I've shot several and you scratch your head once you find them.The most notable was the doe that ran 200 yards after being hit through the heart with a 454 and took three more to put her down. The stories of hard cast doing wierd things in deer has me scratching my head as well. There just isnt a perfect bullet.

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#196616 - 12/15/18 09:03 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: Brenden]
Whitworth
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Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 9593
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 Originally Posted By: Brenden
There just isnt a perfect bullet.


As a guy who has used cast bullets extensively and has seen more than his share of expanding bullet failures, I have always been more than a little skeptical but have remained open-minded. That said, I believe there is a perfect bullet and that?s the Swift A-frame. They open on smaller thin-skinned game like whitetail and they will bust through the shoulders of Cape buffalo. A bullet that can do that is pretty much perfect in my estimation. Yeah, they cost more, but there?s no free ride. And XTPs are, well, XTPs...
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#196617 - 12/15/18 09:11 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: Whitworth]
tradmark
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Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 2965

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Well thats how it works, if you shoot something perfectly in the vitals and a bullet fails and the animal isnt recovered, you cant call it a failure because you didnt recover the bullet and prove it. However, if you did recover it and had jacket separation or a really poor wound channel you cant call it a faiure because the animal died. Pretty circular logic. As stated above, if itll open and wreck havoc on a deer and then penetrate and kill a buff all in short order it seems pretty perfect to me. Yeah, aframes while not perfectly priced to some, are pretty perfect in performance for sure!

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#196620 - 12/15/18 10:28 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: tradmark]
Zee
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Registered: 03/23/14
Posts: 2673

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Bullets can fail in many ways.

-Fail to penetrate deep enough.
-Fail to expand.
-Fail to hold together.
-Fail to meet our/manufacturer standards/expectations.
-etc

Hunters can fail in many ways.

-Fail to practice enough.
-Fail to hit the animal.
-Fail to hit the vitals.
-Fail to be honest with ourselves.
-etc.

To decidedly determine bullet failure and not just assume, you have to have a body and/or a bullet. Without which, we can only speculate and assume. Observing an animals reaction to deduct a conclusion is one such example. Not saying that?s wrong. If that?s all we have to go on........it?s all we have. But, it is what it is. Incomplete data.

As long as we are honest with ourselves about our performance and the bullets as well.

?Minute of deer accuracy.?
?Hit a pie plate at X distance.?
?Good enough for hunting accuracy.?

Blaming the bullet doesn?t hurt our ego as much and is therefore the easy way out. Especially when we can?t prove either.

Just the facts, Ma?am.
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#196621 - 12/15/18 11:01 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: Zee]
tradmark
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All those are things that can happen for sure. I believe the OP, if he says he saw blood on a shoulder hit and his brother did, then i believe him. Same goes for
Video of shot impact. If the OP is to be believed, then i dont care which of the above types of failure happened. One of them did. Also runs consistent with what many if us have seen happen with that bullet. No deer should be alive after a hit in the shoulder.


Edited by tradmark (12/15/18 11:10 AM)

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#196622 - 12/15/18 11:13 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: tradmark]
Zee
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Registered: 03/23/14
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We would assume.
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"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

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#196623 - 12/15/18 11:17 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: Zee]
tradmark
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Registered: 06/08/10
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That he told the truth and hit the shoulder or.....?

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#196624 - 12/15/18 11:29 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: tradmark]
Zee
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Registered: 03/23/14
Posts: 2673

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That he hit what he thought he hit.
That the angle was what he thought it was.
That bone was hit.
That the bullet failed.
Etc.

We can assume.
_________________________
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

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#196625 - 12/15/18 11:33 AM Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer. [Re: Zee]
tradmark
Gun Slinger


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 2965

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So if he said it hit shoulder and if his son saw it with a shoulder hit, and the leg was incapacitated, how does a 44 not put that deer down over 800-900 yards? I think deductive logic dictates that either the bullet failed or the OP and his son are lying. Is there a 3rd option?

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