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#179684 - 03/24/17 06:25 AM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: sixshot]
dhom
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Registered: 03/24/13
Posts: 505

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I believe this old argument was started at least 60 yrs ago. At that time bullets of either type were not as good as todays technology. An example would be, if you were using a 30-06 for whitetail with 150 gr and you wanted to shoot an elk, you would choose a 180 gr because they wouldn't expand as quickly. The same is not true today to a certain extent. Now I can use a 165 gr bullet such as a Hornady spire point for deer then switch to a 165 gr Accubond for elk. A short version of the cast bullets is, we had roundnose, then SWC, and finally LFN and WFN. The latter being the best for hunting. I agree with all the advise given above. Match the bullet to the game hunted. Eventually, I think we all learn premium bullets are the best insurance for the hunt!

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#179688 - 03/24/17 08:43 AM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: dhom]
Whitworth
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Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 8844
Loc: Virginia

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I have always been a big proponent of GOOD hardcast bullets for all types of game and have used them successfully on all manner of game. I have found that those critical of their use typically have a very limited exposure/experience with GOOD flat-nosed hardcast bullets. Many often make the mistake of over-driving cast bullets thinking more velocity is the answer to quick kills and that with cast bullets is a recipe for disaster. I am oversimplifying, but we have discussed this ad nausea on this site (and others) and I find it somewhat tedious at this stage. I've dedicated chapters to this topic in two books.....

That said, revolvers will never achieve rifle-like velocities. So, working within the limited parameters (read: limits) of a revolver, hardcast bullets work well. If you don't push them too hard, they will penetrate deeply, and break bones along the way. Like Dick pointed out, heavy for caliber is a good idea for deep penetration, not limiting your shot angles. I will continue to use quality hardcast bullets of some game animals. That said....

We have come a long way on the jacketed expanding bullet front and I am going to lump monolithic expanding bullets into this category for the sake of discussion. I don't consider XTPs or even Mag XTPs to be premium bullets. I watched utter and complete failure back to back with Mag XTPs last October and it was enough to give me cause for pause. They are fine bullets for deer and some hogs, but when the target gets tough, I want something that will hold together no matter what. For that, you are hard pressed to do better than the Swift A-frame. They are tough and hold together well and don't over expand. Another bullet I have trouble finding fault with is the Barnes XPB. This is a bullet that is as tough as nails.

Last year, in Hondo, Texas, at Action Outdoor Adventures, where we gather to live test bullets/loads/calibers on large animals, I saw numerous bullet failures -- both of the cast and jacketed variety. Granted, this is an extreme test by anyone's measure, but that is precisely why we do it. Will hardcast bullets work on really big animals? Yes indeed. I killed a really big (2,000 lbs) water buffalo a couple of years ago with hardcast bullets and they worked admirably, but if you have a big trophy fee on the line, and/or (and more importantly) your own butt is on the line, I want a bullet that will punch deep and straight no matter what resistance it encounters. In this case I don't want an expanding bullet, or a hardcast bullet, I want something along the lines of a Punch bullet. It has all of the good characteristics of a quality hardcast flat-nosed bullet, without any of the negatives -- like a material that has a limited ability to maintain its nose shape. When you are on the ground, and close -- no, very close to this (see photo below), it's no time to skimp on quality or cost.

_________________________

Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

"Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time"

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#179692 - 03/24/17 11:02 AM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: Whitworth]
Raptortrapper
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Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 3341
Loc: Colorado

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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
...but we have discussed this ad nausea on this site (and others) and I find it somewhat tedious at this stage.

I think that's why these types of threads don't get the emotions going like they used to. We used to be able to sell tickets to these threads. Now everyone is to tired to get into it again! By now, with a dozen posts in on this thread, someone would have called Rod at least 4 names, James would have pounded his fist on the table, somebody else would have broke a beer bottle over Whitworths head, another guy would have been trying to throw Trademark out the window, and Gary would have said, "I'm watching" at least once by now. Me, Briarhopper (Dewayne), and Chance would be sitting back giving high fives and asking each other "OHHHHHH! Did you see that??!!"

I kinda miss those days! It was fun, in a way...
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If you don't carry in condition 1, you don't carry a gun, you carry a bullet holder.

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#179693 - 03/24/17 11:08 AM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: Raptortrapper]
Whitworth
Shootist


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 8844
Loc: Virginia

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
...but we have discussed this ad nausea on this site (and others) and I find it somewhat tedious at this stage.

I think that's why these types of threads don't get the emotions going like they used to. We used to be able to sell tickets to these threads. Now everyone is to tired to get into it again! By now, with a dozen posts in on this thread, someone would have called Rod at least 4 names, James would have pounded his fist on the table, somebody else would have broke a beer bottle over Whitworths head, another guy would have been trying to throw Trademark out the window, and Gary would have said, "I'm watching" at least once by now. Me, Briarhopper (Dewayne), and Chance would be sitting back giving high fives and asking each other "OHHHHHH! Did you see that??!!"

I kinda miss those days! It was fun, in a way...


All someone has to do is post something really inflammatory.
_________________________

Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

"Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time"

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#179694 - 03/24/17 11:12 AM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: Whitworth]
Raptortrapper
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Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 3341
Loc: Colorado

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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
All someone has to do is post something really inflammatory.

It ain't gonna be me!!!
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If you don't carry in condition 1, you don't carry a gun, you carry a bullet holder.

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#179699 - 03/24/17 04:12 PM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: Raptortrapper]
sixshot
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Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 368

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All true, every bullet has came a long way. Those Punch bullets Kellye started making several years ago were great. I think he's since sold the rights to someone else.
My only real experience with a good jacketed slug was with the Speer 270 Gold Dot & it isn't one of the really tough bullets when something a few paces away might want to stomp a hole in your breakfast but it did work great on the one elk I shot with it.
I am surprised about the 300 gr. XTP thought because of what I've read about from Lynn Thompson using them in Austrailia on a whole bunch of Buffalo with great results using high shoulder shots & getting exits on many of them.
I'm only going on what you guys tell me about the Swift A Frames & the Barnes bullets.
Still, I'll stick with cast, & not wanting to argue but agree, some can make too hard of a cast slug. By that I mean brittle. Get carried away with the antimony & you get brittle. I want a tough cast slug, not a brittle cast slug so until I have one fail me, in my house they are still better.
I do enjoy all of you younger guys experiences, that's what makes our game good & makes it better.

Dick

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#179705 - 03/24/17 07:19 PM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: sixshot]
FA834ME
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Registered: 11/29/14
Posts: 191

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Spinsail has reached a very logical conclusion as a result of his search for an answer to the 60 yr old question. I would add that Good bullets be they jacketed or cast ain't cheap. I have limited experience with hard cast hunting bullets but have found the good stuff as expensive or more so with a decent jacketed bullet. I remember the rather heated discussions on jacketed vs cast as well. I don't think there is a black and white answer. No bullet performs the same all the time on all game. As Whitworth pointed out it is more of a decision of which bullet for what you are after. Just like which caliber is better than the other.

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#179707 - 03/24/17 08:48 PM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: FA834ME]
tradmark
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Oh yeah, but it sure is fun. Those old spitting contests did have their place. It caused me to search and search and experiment to find some answers that have really brought great results. I just hope no one hates anyone based on internet sparring. I love good debates and scientifically examining findings and coming up with solutions. Arguments are a-ok with me. Some of my favorite hunting buds are guys some following these threads over the years woulda figured id be trading fists with.

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#179708 - 03/24/17 10:15 PM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: Raptortrapper]
wapitirod
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Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 7641
Loc: Tillamook, Oregon

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 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
...but we have discussed this ad nausea on this site (and others) and I find it somewhat tedious at this stage.

I think that's why these types of threads don't get the emotions going like they used to. We used to be able to sell tickets to these threads. Now everyone is to tired to get into it again! By now, with a dozen posts in on this thread, someone would have called Rod at least 4 names, James would have pounded his fist on the table, somebody else would have broke a beer bottle over Whitworths head, another guy would have been trying to throw Trademark out the window, and Gary would have said, "I'm watching" at least once by now. Me, Briarhopper (Dewayne), and Chance would be sitting back giving high fives and asking each other "OHHHHHH! Did you see that??!!"

I kinda miss those days! It was fun, in a way...


You mean people called me names? My blood pressure was so high my veins in my forehead were blocking my vision. Those were the good old days. There were times had some of us met in person it would have made cage fighting look like kindergarten recess.
_________________________
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.- John Wayne
http://www.dixiefirearms.net



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#179709 - 03/24/17 10:18 PM Re: Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed [Re: tradmark]
Raptortrapper
Shooting Expert


Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 3341
Loc: Colorado

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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
Oh yeah, but it sure is fun. Those old spitting contests did have their place. It caused me to search and search and experiment to find some answers that have really brought great results. I just hope no one hates anyone based on internet sparring. I love good debates and scientifically examining findings and coming up with solutions. Arguments are a-ok with me. Some of my favorite hunting buds are guys some following these threads over the years woulda figured id be trading fists with.


In NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM do I hate anyone on this forum because of things that have been said. I admit, I flew off the handle a few times myself. To me, we are like family here. Every family has their arguments. But in the end, when it's time for the crap to hit the fan, I believe every single one of us would stand side by side with one another.

It's kinda fun to go back and read some of those knock down drag out threads now!
_________________________
If you don't carry in condition 1, you don't carry a gun, you carry a bullet holder.

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