rob-c
(member)
12/12/18 09:46 AM
Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

So a little back story on why I want to shoot the shoulders, our new lease is 67 acres and I shot a medium sized doe in the shoulder with a 240 grain xtp out of my 44 ( not on purpose ) and she ended up running on a second bordering property that after I called for permission to track on was denied.
When I hunted with my 357 mag Blackhawk with180 grain hardcast 22bhn always aimed for the shoulder and always had entrance and exit and all deer would go down in sight. So I am looking at two bullets in the 44mag 260 grain weight, one 15 bhn and the other 22 bhn. The 15 bhn is a better deal price wise and meplat difference is only . 324 15bhn bullet vs .320 for the 22bhn bullet. So will a 15 bhn bullet be hard enough to not get a bunch of nose damage after hitting the first shoulder or should I go for the 22bhn. FYI I am not interested in casting my own .
Thanks for the help..


MS Hitman
(enthusiast)
12/12/18 10:27 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Personally, I would go with the harder bullet. I cast the Lyman 429421 and water drop those bullets, yet to recover one from a deer regardless of shot presentation. The difference in meplat is inconsequential in my opinion.

Montana Bullet Works makes a good bullet. I shoot the 200 grain LFN in my .38-40 at 1,300 fps and have not recovered any those either.


Paul_H
(journeyman)
12/12/18 12:55 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Unfortunately some animals just don't die quickly even with a fatal shot. I don't think you had bullet failure, but you have no idea where the bullet hit or if it failed or not as you weren't able to recover the animal to determine what happened.

If you absolutely have to anchor an animal on the spot, then a brain or spine shot is what you need to make. You'll never get 100% blam flops on heart lung shots.

As to bhn, if you're pushing that bullet to ~1500 fps the 44 mag is capable of, I'd consider 15 bhn on the soft side and would lean towards the 22 bhn as the better choice for that application.


rob-c
(member)
12/12/18 02:32 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Unfortunately some animals just don't die quickly even with a fatal shot. I don't think you had bullet failure, but you have no idea where the bullet hit or if it failed or not as you weren't able to recover the animal to determine what happened.

If you absolutely have to anchor an animal on the spot, then a brain or spine shot is what you need to make. You'll never get 100% blam flops on heart lung shots.

As to bhn, if you're pushing that bullet to ~1500 fps the 44 mag is capable of, I'd consider 15 bhn on the soft side and would lean towards the 22 bhn as the better choice for that application.


The doe stopped about 40 yards from my son and he got a really good look at her and it was 100% in the shoulder, I also watched her not use that leg when she ran. When he went to pull up and shoot her again she bolted .


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 08:22 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Still an unknown.

Not saying you?re right. Not saying you?re wrong. I?m saying the result of the shot and what you actually hit (internally) is unknown.

Until all aspects are known, one cannot decidedly blame any one entity. It could be shooter. It could be bullet. It could be both.

Unknown.

If switching bullets gives you more confidence. By all means......do so. But without complete facts.............all else is speculation and assumption. Not that those are wrong. But, they are what they are. A speculation and an assumption.


rob-c
(member)
12/12/18 08:54 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Still an unknown.

Not saying you?re right. Not saying you?re wrong. I?m saying the result of the shot and what you actually hit (internally) is unknown.

Until all aspects are known, one cannot decidedly blame any one entity. It could be shooter. It could be bullet. It could be both.

Unknown.

If switching bullets gives you more confidence. By all means......do so. But without complete facts.............all else is speculation and assumption. Not that those are wrong. But, they are what they are. A speculation and an assumption.

Ok, so never had this problem shooting hardcast in my 357 ,always reached vitals. So I want a bullet that will get to the vitals when I don?t make a ideal shot. So I speculate the xtp did not do its job considering I tracked her easily 8 to 900 yards before having to stop and this is after a 30 min wait. One can make a logical assumption that the bullet did not do significant damage.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 09:11 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Or you missed the vitals?

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 09:15 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Out of curiosity, how did you track her 900 yards?

Tracks? Blood? That?s a little over 1/2 mile. Damn good tracking!


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 09:20 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

And I?m not arguing for or against you by any means. I am just one who likes to explore all the possibilities in the absence of facts/evidence.

It makes for great conversation and keeps us honest with ourselves. In the end, we hopefully learn. One way or the other.

👍🏻


rob-c
(member)
12/12/18 09:23 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

[quote=Zee]Or you missed the vitals? [/quot
Right because the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder,plenty of proof of xtp?s not holding together on heavy bone. As I said before never had this problem with hardcast out of my 357.i


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 09:24 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

We will never know.

rob-c
(member)
12/12/18 09:26 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Out of curiosity, how did you track her 900 yards?

Tracks? Blood? That?s a little over 1/2 mile. Damn good tracking!


Drops of blood and tracks, we have snow in upstate ny so not to difficult .


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/12/18 09:27 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: rob-c
 Originally Posted By: Zee
Out of curiosity, how did you track her 900 yards?

Tracks? Blood? That?s a little over 1/2 mile. Damn good tracking!


Drops of blood and tracks, we have snow in upstate ny so not to difficult .


Ah! Very nice. Snow can be a decided blessing.


Randy M
(old hand)
12/13/18 06:35 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Interesting thread. Best of luck as you explore new bullets.

REDHAWK1954
(Pooh-Bah)
12/13/18 06:46 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Was the doe standing or walking when you shot. The first buck I killed with a 44 mag lever action ran quite some distance until I put a couple more shots into him. That was 39 years ago. The buck was walking broadside to me and I put one into his should . The 240 grain hollow point broke the onside shoulder and also broke the offside shoulder but he ran off stumbling as he went. I got down from a old home made ladder stand and tracked him till I jumped him and had to put two more shots into him as he tried to run off. When I dressed him later at home I found out that the bullet had broke both shoulders but had not hit anything vital. Thinking back I remembered that he had his shoulder in the forward position as I pulled the trigger. That put his shoulder in front of his lungs. I am not sure just how the bullet broke the far side shoulder while missing the lungs but it did. That has made me nervous about shooting a deer in the shoulder with a slow moving bullet. I normally aim just behind the shoulder.

rob-c
(member)
12/13/18 10:18 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

The deer was standing broadside at about 50 yards.

PsTaN
(addict)
12/13/18 08:13 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

I hit this deer a tad high of my normal aiming point with a 240SWC at about 1030fps. Went maybe 35 yards and tipped over. 2 big holes. Website states BHN 16-17.




Willicd76
(stranger)
12/13/18 10:07 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

I shot my muley this year with a 180gr 18bhn out of the 357 mag. Shot centered onside shoulder and it was later found that I turned 90* down at the rib cage and went through the brisket. It would not have been fatal even though it was a perfect shot in my opinion. It changed my mind on calibers for hunting even though it was likely an anomaly!

ruger4570
(enthusiast)
12/14/18 09:08 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

You may also consider the Swift A-Frame bullets. They get great reviews.

I have taken 4 deer using the 240 XTP's in 44. None traveled more than 30-40 yards. Three were shot through the lungs and one in the shoulder. The biggest was a huge buck at 18 yards through the lungs. He went 30 yards. All were pass throughs.


linebaugh
(addict)
12/14/18 09:18 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

I literally had this exact thing happen to me this fall. The only differences were, I was shooting a 454Casull, 240gr. XTP?s and it was raining hard. 5 minutes before end of legal shooting light, she came in. I hit her right on the shoulder, at 70yrds. I could see the entrance wound, as she ran past me, unable to use her right front leg. We spent 4hours in the dark looking for her. The rain changed to snow overnight, and any sign she had left from the night before, was covered by 3? of snow by morning. I found her about a week later, when the predators finally found her also. That still eats at me right now, that I couldn?t find her that night. Next year I?m over gunning!!! 475 Linebaugh, 425gr. Cast performance bullets!! I would prefer not to repeat this years folly.

MS Hitman
(enthusiast)
12/14/18 10:16 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Unless one greatly overmatches a bullet to the game intended, there will be a mix between penetration and expansion. Some, not all, tend to overdrive the XTP bullets and tip the favor to expansion. Slowing these bullets down a bit will increase penetration, the same holds true for Ballistic Tip bullets. I have gotten length wise penetration in deer using my .309 JDJ with 150s slowed down to 2,350 fps.

Bullets measuring 0.429" and up are preexpamded prior to pulling the trigger, so I don't worry about trying to drive them so hard. They tend to act more like a flat point cast bullet and make the trip through the shoulders when needed.


Brenden
(enthusiast)
12/14/18 08:10 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Deer aren't hard to kill at all, but their will to live is strong. I've shot several and you scratch your head once you find them.The most notable was the doe that ran 200 yards after being hit through the heart with a 454 and took three more to put her down. The stories of hard cast doing wierd things in deer has me scratching my head as well. There just isnt a perfect bullet.

Whitworth
(Shootist)
12/15/18 09:03 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Brenden
There just isnt a perfect bullet.


As a guy who has used cast bullets extensively and has seen more than his share of expanding bullet failures, I have always been more than a little skeptical but have remained open-minded. That said, I believe there is a perfect bullet and that?s the Swift A-frame. They open on smaller thin-skinned game like whitetail and they will bust through the shoulders of Cape buffalo. A bullet that can do that is pretty much perfect in my estimation. Yeah, they cost more, but there?s no free ride. And XTPs are, well, XTPs...


tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 09:11 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Well thats how it works, if you shoot something perfectly in the vitals and a bullet fails and the animal isnt recovered, you cant call it a failure because you didnt recover the bullet and prove it. However, if you did recover it and had jacket separation or a really poor wound channel you cant call it a faiure because the animal died. Pretty circular logic. As stated above, if itll open and wreck havoc on a deer and then penetrate and kill a buff all in short order it seems pretty perfect to me. Yeah, aframes while not perfectly priced to some, are pretty perfect in performance for sure!

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 10:28 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Bullets can fail in many ways.

-Fail to penetrate deep enough.
-Fail to expand.
-Fail to hold together.
-Fail to meet our/manufacturer standards/expectations.
-etc

Hunters can fail in many ways.

-Fail to practice enough.
-Fail to hit the animal.
-Fail to hit the vitals.
-Fail to be honest with ourselves.
-etc.

To decidedly determine bullet failure and not just assume, you have to have a body and/or a bullet. Without which, we can only speculate and assume. Observing an animals reaction to deduct a conclusion is one such example. Not saying that?s wrong. If that?s all we have to go on........it?s all we have. But, it is what it is. Incomplete data.

As long as we are honest with ourselves about our performance and the bullets as well.

?Minute of deer accuracy.?
?Hit a pie plate at X distance.?
?Good enough for hunting accuracy.?

Blaming the bullet doesn?t hurt our ego as much and is therefore the easy way out. Especially when we can?t prove either.

Just the facts, Ma?am.


tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:01 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

All those are things that can happen for sure. I believe the OP, if he says he saw blood on a shoulder hit and his brother did, then i believe him. Same goes for
Video of shot impact. If the OP is to be believed, then i dont care which of the above types of failure happened. One of them did. Also runs consistent with what many if us have seen happen with that bullet. No deer should be alive after a hit in the shoulder.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:13 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

We would assume.

tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:17 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

That he told the truth and hit the shoulder or.....?

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:29 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

That he hit what he thought he hit.
That the angle was what he thought it was.
That bone was hit.
That the bullet failed.
Etc.

We can assume.


tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:33 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

So if he said it hit shoulder and if his son saw it with a shoulder hit, and the leg was incapacitated, how does a 44 not put that deer down over 800-900 yards? I think deductive logic dictates that either the bullet failed or the OP and his son are lying. Is there a 3rd option?

tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:36 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

That said, id go with the harder bullet. Less chance of an assumptive failure.

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:36 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

The shot was too high or too far forward. The angle was not as perceived.

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:38 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

And yes, a harder bullet could be a good choice.

tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 11:40 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Zee
The shot was too high or too far forward. The angle was not as perceived.



I havent yet seen a hit from a 44 with a quality bullet that didnt kill it. Deer chest cavity is large and nearly everything behind it is vitals or spine.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 12:10 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Assuming he hit what he thought he hit?

Whitworth
(Shootist)
12/15/18 12:29 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.


This is what we experienced with Jordan's red deer a couple of years ago. Would you agree these bullets failed? Since these bullets have performed in this manner on numerous occasions, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that it is a possibility the OP encountered similar performance? It's unlikely he is posting to deceive us.





This is the XTP James used a couple of years ago at the Bash.


Versus this performance:



Across the board I have never seen more consistent performance irrespective of the game. Why use anything else?


rob-c
(member)
12/15/18 12:48 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: tradmark
So if he said it hit shoulder and if his son saw it with a shoulder hit, and the leg was incapacitated, how does a 44 not put that deer down over 800-900 yards? I think deductive logic dictates that either the bullet failed or the OP and his son are lying. Is there a 3rd option?


Thanks trademark, I wasn?t going to get into it with Zee again. I have been a bow hunter for close to 30 yrs and when I don?t do my job of making a perfect text book shot, I try to use equipment that will perform when I don?t . Hence a bullet that has a better track record on heavy bone hits. Because no one is perfect and not a single hunter can make that perfect shot 100% of the time.

And Zee I have no ego problem, me blaming the bullet for my poor shot placement has to do with the pit in the gut feeling of loosing a deer. Even if there is a 10% increase that a hard cast would have made it to the vitals I?ll take it.
Oh but wait my son and I will never know because even though you were not there we didn?t see what we thought we saw.


rob-c
(member)
12/15/18 12:55 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Whitworth

This is what we experienced with Jordan's red deer a couple of years ago. Would you agree these bullets failed? Since these bullets have performed in this manner on numerous occasions, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that it is a possibility the OP encountered similar performance? It's unlikely he is posting to deceive us.





This is the XTP James used a couple of years ago at the Bash.


Versus this performance:



Across the board I have never seen more consistent performance irrespective of the game. Why use anything else?


Thanks max , I highly respect your comments . I have both your books and I went with hardcast bullets in my 357 because of your high praise of them. But when moving up to the 44 figured the xtp?s would be ok . But here I am asking about hard cast again.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 01:20 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

The pictured bullets do indeed appear to have failed.

We can assume that bullet failure is a possibility in the OP. As we can assume other possibilities.

Never considered deception as an option.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 01:24 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Unfortunately, emotions seem to be creeping into this discussion and preventing clear headed conversation and an exploration of possibilities. As always happens in these types of discussions.

Always a shame.

I continue to be open to logical and scientific discussion should any choose to do so.

Absent that, by all means. Carry on, Gents.

👍🏻


Whitworth
(Shootist)
12/15/18 01:31 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Unfortunately, emotions seem to be creeping into this discussion and preventing clear headed conversation and an exploration of possibilities. As always happens in these types of discussions.

Always a shame.

I continue to be open to logical and scientific discussion should any choose to do so.

Absent that, by all means. Carry on, Gents.

👍🏻


The veracity of his claim is ostensibly being questioned. When that happens, folks defend their positions and claims.


tradmark
(Gun Slinger)
12/15/18 02:02 PM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

 Originally Posted By: rob-c
 Originally Posted By: tradmark
So if he said it hit shoulder and if his son saw it with a shoulder hit, and the leg was incapacitated, how does a 44 not put that deer down over 800-900 yards? I think deductive logic dictates that either the bullet failed or the OP and his son are lying. Is there a 3rd option?


Thanks trademark, I wasn?t going to get into it with Zee again. I have been a bow hunter for close to 30 yrs and when I don?t do my job of making a perfect text book shot, I try to use equipment that will perform when I don?t . Hence a bullet that has a better track record on heavy bone hits. Because no one is perfect and not a single hunter can make that perfect shot 100% of the time.

And Zee I have no ego problem, me blaming the bullet for my poor shot placement has to do with the pit in the gut feeling of loosing a deer. Even if there is a 10% increase that a hard cast would have made it to the vitals I?ll take it.
Oh but wait my son and I will never know because even though you were not there we didn?t see what we thought we saw.



I have never questioned my equipment to cover up my shooting fails. I assume you do the same. I have taken shots where i didnt clearly see where bullet impact was made. Ive gone to videoing every hunt possible so i can see the exact angle and impact. I started handgun hunting with xtps in my 454?s and 44 mags. I had a stellar run of picture perfect results and viciferously defended them to whitworth on other forums. I never had a failure and he had in the past. Then i had a run of unabashed failures and moved on to cast bullets. They just didnt do the damage i wanted. If i one lung an elk with a barnes or aframe, its down in less than 100 yards, when that has happened with cast, the day long chase was on. Then i had cast failures on big animals when hard bone was hit. To date, be my kids and close hunting buds we have shot over 100 animals with aframes and barnes out if 454?s, 44?s, 500?s, 475 and 480?s and 357?s. The barnes work great in 44,?475, 41, and 460/454. This years bovine bash a 45acp shot into a watusi didnt open up well. As far as aframes, never a failure. They open easier than any other hp or soft point bullet and do tremendous damage. They also dont fail. So you may want to consider trying a 240 or 280 grain aframe. Expensive, but the damage it does goes far beyond any solid and makes up for less than perfect
Shots well.

On a side note, doing alot of video in the last few years ive witnessed many more times a game animal moves a bit just as the gun goes off. No amount of shooting skill and marksmanship will eliminate this variable. Its best to do as much damage as possible just for those instances.


rob-c
(member)
12/16/18 08:25 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

Tradmark and max thanks for the suggestions on the a frames, 2 boxes of the 280 grainers are on the way from midway. Looking forward to working up some loads and testing them out.
And thanks to all that had given constructive suggestions..


Whitworth
(Shootist)
12/16/18 10:03 AM
Re: Brindle hardness for shooting shoulders on deer.

You're welcome, Rob. Keep us posted!